I don't care how much profit companies make. how much executives are paid, or how it is determined as long as workers are paid a decent living wage. — T Clark
In real life, does it play out like this? Who decides? I'm talking of course about business, particularly big business. — Mikie
Hmm. A voting system within a company, you mean? — Mikie
workers aren't being paid a decent wage, in reality. And the reason they're not is partly determined by these OP questions — Mikie
But let's assume they are being paid a decent wage. They get enough to eat and live and have healthcare. Is that it? They deserve only that? What if they're the ones doing the lion's share of the work? Don't they deserve more than simply a "decent living wage"? — Mikie
I don't understand your objection to "the market". An analogy - I say the electorate selected Biden as president. You say the electorate had nothing to do with it, it was real people. Of course it was real people, and the collection of people who did the voting within the system, I am referring to as the electorate. Both are correct. — PhilosophyRunner
A company decided to pay all of their staff the same amount - £36,000. This included software developers and clerical workers.
What happened? They struggled to hire software developers because other companies were willing to pay a lot more for this job (i.e they were paying below market value for the job - but I will only use the word in brackets for you). Equally they were inundated and overwhelmed with applications for clerical jobs because other companies were paying a lot less (i.e they were paying above market value for the job). — PhilosophyRunner
I don't think Marx was so prescient he wrote about problems that didn't exist until 100 years later. — Benkei
I gave criteria for determining the answers to the OP questions. You seem to think my answers aren't responsive to your questions. I don't see why. — T Clark
I think workers deserve a decent life for themselves and their families. We can have a discussion as to what is required for a decent life. — T Clark
It’s a strange question because wages are decided and agreed upon before the worker makes a single product. — NOS4A2
These wages are determined by the market — NOS4A2
Even so, the profit should not go towards this or that worker, but towards the business at large, because the business is providing income to everyone involved. — NOS4A2
A good example. What my focus here would be is on who decided to give everyone an equal wage and why. Seems silly to me, but I'd be interested in the thought process behind it. — Mikie
So there's no mystery: what I'm advocating for, ultimately, is not having these decisions exclusively be in the hands a tiny group. I'm not in favor of plutocracy in government, and I assume no one else here is either. I'm not in favor of it in business either. — Mikie
I share that thought. I think it includes wages and other material conditions, but also decision making participation. That's basically my whole argument. — Mikie
He always said the workers thought it was great and management did whatever they could to throw monkey wrenches in the machinery. He always saw it not as a way to help the workers, but rather as a way to improve the productivity of the whole enterprise. — T Clark
Really? What do you think his surplus value extraction was all about? Not about profit? — Benkei
why you need to be this recalcitrant — Benkei
Likely those people who own the property and/or basically who have gotten the 100 people together for the project make a suggestion on how the profits are going to be divided and then the rest 100 or so either accept it or say no thanks.Let's say only a handful of people own the property. I'm not assuming everyone is equal, I'm asking how distribution of profits is decided -- and by whom. — Mikie
(3) Who decides (1) and (2)? — Mikie
Accordingly, 100 people who contribute to producing something automatically incur a debt to the rest of the world for the value of the resources they have appropriated to themselves, and the damage they have caused to other resources, ie the environment. Thus every fenced off field owes a debt to wilderness, as does every cut down tree, every mine and quarry, and every factory. This unpaid debt is now being called in by way of climate change and environmental degradation.
Every time a bird puts a twig on his nest he is incurring a debt to wilderness. — NOS4A2
If you think the problem you're describing is new (50 years old) then you're ignoring a lot of history. — Benkei
Perhaps the biggest flaw in the shareholder value myth is its fundamentally mistaken idea about who shareholders “really are.” It assumes that all shareholders are the same and all they care about is whats happening to the company’s stock price — actually all they care about is what’s happening to the stock tomorrow, not even 5 or 10 years from now.
Shareholders are people. They have many different interests. They’re not all the same. One of the biggest differences is short term and long term investing. Most people who invest in the stock market are investing for retirement, or perhaps college tuition or some other long term project. — Lynn Stout
Take a cue or don't but I'm done. It's fucking annoying talking to someone who only thinks he knows a lot about economics. — Benkei
Mikie actually knows this, but somehow cannot integrate it into his economic understanding. — unenlightened
100 people who contribute to producing something automatically incur a debt to the rest of the world for the value of the resources they have appropriated to themselves, and the damage they have caused to other resources, ie the environment. — unenlightened
Likely those people who own the property — ssu
those who buy the stock then decide what to do with the profits — ssu
In all kinds of cases.In terms of large corporations, this seems to be the case. — Mikie
I think you are confusing two things here. The reasons why people have invented companies and then why societies have become as they are and have companies and corporations in the role they have.If this is truly the state of things, the question becomes: is it just? Has it always been this way? — Mikie
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.