Again, is theism true or not true? What are the truth-values of its claims? If any or all of them are not true or undecidable, then isn't theism as a concept empty or not true (i.e. there may be a deity but it is not "theistic")? I claim that theism is not true.
Forget about "god", amigo, and focus on theism (and its static shadow deism). Why is that so hard for you/them? Or maybe it's my 'focus on theism instead of "god"' that's misguided and you or somebody smarter than us both, Smith, – like Gnomon or Wayfarer or @Gregory – can explain it to me/us. :point: — 180 Proof
I'm late to the party here, so I'm not sure if key terminology has been defined and agreed upon. I am neither an Atheist nor a Theist, but like all humans, I do have personal beliefs about Ontology (existence) & Epistemology (justified belief), which are still debatable after all these millennia.Notice though that atheism is also the stance that god doesn't exist which is a belief. Clearly, this is inconsistent with atheism being a lack of belief, unless, as you seem to think, withholding belief = belief that false. — Agent Smith
I think it is large claim to make that physicalism science will one day satisfactorally explain everything. — Andrew4Handel
I am neither an Atheist nor a Theist, — Gnomon
Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.
Atheism seems to be an emotional response to certain aspects of Theism, especially the notions of divine intervention and ultimate damnation. — Gnomon
:100:I am neither an Atheist nor a Theist,
— Gnomon
If you're not a theist, then you're an atheist. Don't be afraid of the word. If you are not a believer in any kind of deity then you're effectively an atheist. I think many people with 'spiritual beliefs' are atheists. — Tom Storm
Theism is the consistent belief in god. Atheism is the consistent belief that there is no god. Agnosticism is not having a belief concerning god. — Banno
Much of the trouble is the result of a personality type that just can't live with "I don't know".
So they make shit up. — Banno
Ha! That's an Atheist twist on a typical Christian argument. I suppose you're saying that the god-question is binary (either-or). But Agnosticism takes the third option : that a supernatural deity is unknowable by the ordinary means of Epistemology (knowable world). In that case, suspension of both belief and dis-belief is the reasonable stance. Or, blind faith replaces knowledge.If you're not a theist, then you're an atheist. Don't be afraid of the word. If you are not a believer in any kind of deity then you're effectively an atheist. I think many people with 'spiritual beliefs' are atheists. — Tom Storm
Ha! That's an Atheist twist on a typical Christian argument. — Gnomon
However, unlike physicists, rational philosophers do not limit their mental explorations to the physical sensory milieu. So, a fourth option is Immanentism, which defines the logical (mathematical) & self-organizing (life-like) attributes of Evolution are limited to space-time Nature itself, while making no hypothesis about eternal-infinite origins. — Gnomon
Those Agnostic alternatives to Atheism, avoid commitment to any particular form of Theism as a doctrine. So, they don't deserve to be lumped into a category that they are designed to avoid. Don't you agree? :wink: — Gnomon
:smirk:Therefore rocks are agnostic! — fdrake
And the other two possibilities?The six possibilities are:
BG
~BG
B~G
~B~G — Banno
:up:The inconsistent combinations are:
BG & ~BG
B~G & BG
B~G & ~B~G
These are inconsistent because they each contain an assertion and it's negation.
:ok:Theism is consistent:
BG & ~B~G
Note the positive belief, bolded: BG.
Atheism is consistent:
~BG & B~G
Again, note the positive belief, B~G.
This formulation is inconsistent, Banno: both 'negative atheism' (~BG) and 'negative theism' (~B~G) asserts mutually exclusive concepts (as stipulated above).Agnosticism is also consistent:
~BG & ~B~G
Note the absence of a belief: both are ~B.
I think that describes apatheism (or ignosticism). Agnosticism, actually, is 'not having knowledge concerning god'.Agnosticism is not having a belief concerning god.
Sorry Amigo, you have completely bypassed my argument which I can only repeat, but wont. I think we may be too far apart to continue. I'll leave it to — Tom Storm
Atheism mistakes spiritual with religion. — Agent Smith
And the other two possibilities? — 180 Proof
If you have no beliefs concerning god, then you don't believe in god and you don't believe there is no god. You seem to have missed the point, which is to do withthe difference in scope of the belief and it's obhject. ~BG is not the same as B~G.This formulation is inconsistent, Banno: both 'negative atheism' (~BG) and 'negative theism' (~B~G) asserts mutually exclusive concepts (as stipulated above). — 180 Proof
Exact same argument works if you substitute knowledge for believe. Six possibilities, three are inconsistent, the others have theism as having knowledge of god, atheism as having knowledge that there is no god, and agnosticism as not having knowledge either way.Agnosticism, actually, is 'not having knowledge concerning god'. — 180 Proof
Though there's overlap at the margins (e.g. naturalism, secularism), one ought to observe the distinction between "New Atheism" (i.e. polemical irreligion) and philosophical atheism (i.e. critique of theism, critique of supernaturalism). — 180 Proof
Atheism mistakes spiritual with religion.
— Agent Smith
As I say - it's one of the consequences of the way Western thought, in particular, evolved. Because Christian orthodoxy absorbed so much of so-called pagan philosophy, and then made it subject to right belief, all of it tends to be lumped together and then abandoned together. The Indian view is very different. — Wayfarer
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