But then, Pinker isn't really representing all the Enlightenment values he claims as his own - only the aspects of it that are adopted by MBA courses and hawkish economic rationalists — Wayfarer
I'll just add that I was motivated by the both of you to re-read the Yeats poem, and the hair stood up on my neck. Hasn't happened in awhile. — Noble Dust
moral improvement almost always coincides with increased mastery over the conditions of life — Judaka
Why does humanity need redemption? Humanity is just better at killing and dominating than other animals. Life is about killing and domination, competition and conflict, eating and being eaten, and suffering and causing suffering. Shouldn't humans be praised for trying to rise above that, and having any kind of success? — Judaka
It seems OP is just a question about what measuring stick we should use... And you've decided it should be extraordinarily high. Isn't that the source of your relative pessimism? — Judaka
Religion is, in a sense, simply an organized narrative around which groups of people orient their lives, beliefs and values. You are no different than a muslim in this way. That's why I think the concept of "usefulness" in regards to "religion" (you're actually using it in regards to a set of beliefs) is misleading. Religion is not the opiate of the masses; rather, belief is what keeps people going, religious or secular. — Noble Dust
A Muslim has faith in their religious authorities — praxis
A Muslim has faith in their religious authorities. — praxis
Like many people today I’m not bound by faith in religious authority and can think for myself and not be constrained in moral development. — praxis
What they have faith in is the entire narrative of their belief system, with all it's wrinkles and curiosities, in the same way you have faith in whatever belief system you hold. — Noble Dust
So when you say that the rational atheist is no less beholden to his belief system than the Muslim, you're ignoring what it means to make a rational decision. — Isaac
The mental process of going through arguments pro and con for, say, homosexual marriage, are not similar to the mental process of checking in a book or asking an authority figure, even if both processes are reliant on faith in a system of beliefs. — Isaac
Within any given religion, there are classic forms of thinking (philosophies?) that allow for a heuristic approach. Within the context of any given religion, there are pluralities that mirror the pluralism of Enlightenment thought... In Islam, for instance, the variance of jurisprudence should at least cause us to stop and consider it. — Noble Dust
I don't think (but I don't know for sure) that a muslim would agree. Rationality exists in Islam. It's just not the same rationality that we know. To a muslim, rationality is arguably based on jurisprudence. — Noble Dust
I guarantee you any member of an ulema would roll their eyes at best at this characature. — Noble Dust
I don’t think much depth is needed to point out progress, at least where religion is concerned.
The separation of church and state for instance. Good progress, yes? — praxis
I think "useful" is the wrong way to think about it. People are brought together by communally held beliefs (communism, for instance) because they give life meaning, from which value is derived. This isn't unique to religion. — Noble Dust
I'll just add that I was motivated by the both of you to re-read the Yeats poem, and the hair stood up on my neck. Hasn't happened in awhile. — Noble Dust
What they have faith in is the entire narrative of their belief system, with all it's wrinkles and curiosities, in the same way you have faith in whatever belief system you hold. — Noble Dust
But you are bound by faith in whatever you believe in. Whether that constitutes "thinking for yourself" is open to debate at best, and whether "thinking for yourself" liberates you from being "constrained in moral development" (what does that mean?) is also up for debate. What exactly do you mean by thinking for yourself? — Noble Dust
Proclamation of the First Crusade (1095)
The Turks, a race of Persians, who have penetrated within the boundaries of Romania even to the Mediterranean to that point which they call the Arm of the Saint George, in occupying more and more of the lands of the Christians, have overcome them, have overthrown churches, and have laid waste God's kingdom. If you permit this supinely for very long, God's faithful ones will be still further subjected....
I speak to those present, I send word to those not here; moreover, Christ commands it. Remission of sins will be granted for those going thither, if they end a shackled life either on land or in crossing the sea, or in struggling against the heathen. I, being vested with that gift from God, grant to those who go.
O what a shame, if a people, so despised, degenerate, and enslaved by demons would thus overcome a people endowed with the trust of almighty God, and shining in the name of Christ! O how many evils will be imputed to you by the Lord Himself, if you do no help those who, like you, profess Christianity!
Let those who are accustomed to wage private wars wastefully even against Believers, go forth against the Infidels in a battle worthy to be undertaken now and to be finished in victory. Now, let those, who until recently existed as plunderers, be soldiers in Christ; now, let those, who formerly contended against brothers and relations, rightly fight barbarians; now, let those, who recently were hired for a few pieces of silver, win their eternal reward. — Pope Urban II
Enlightenment cannot stop questioning the way things are, or it’s not Enlightenment any more — Jamal
Can this process eventually transcend Enlightenment? Is post-modern thinking an inevitable outcome of such an Enlightenment process? Isn't the eventual trajectory of questioning and more questioning anti-foundationalism? — Tom Storm
Philosophy, which once seemed obsolete, lives on because the moment to realize it was missed. The summary judgment that it had merely interpreted the world, that resignation in the face of reality had crippled it in itself, becomes a defeatism of reason after the attempt to change the world miscarried…philosophy is obliged ruthlessly to criticize itself…The introverted thought architect dwells behind the moon that is taken over by extroverted technicians. — Adorno, Negative Dialectics
The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point is to change it.
By which Marx meant that the point of philosophy is to change the world. — Jamal
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