But life goes on with or without you right. I have no problem with such solipsism such as yours but it fundamentally rejects reality.

Reality of course being that life does go on after you die. All solipsistic claims are equally valid for each person. I could make the claim that you are simply just an extension of my mind and imagination and that in fact you don’t really exist but only that I do.

This would be incorrect.

All existence is not based on mine, it’s the other way round … I am based on it or in it whichever one you prefer.

Why would this topic of "being given existence but only for a limited time" "only a problem for ... atheists"? It seems only a problem for the believer who expects there to be more to life and nature than this life, which is generally not the outlook or hope of a nonbeliever .

Is there some difference between the cause of your death being a meteor striking and destroying Earth, or dying after being hit by a car? If there is one, it's just some abstraction, practically, what's the difference? Is it that you'll "know"? Because no, you won't, we're talking about death remember?

Your objection is a technicality, you've used intelligence to pick an abstraction over your reality. All you've ever known are sensations, experiences, memories, thoughts and ideas. You say I'm real because you can interact with me, and you'd say what isn't real can't possibly be interacted with, right? What do you think is going to happen when you die!? That's the death of reality to you, what you speak of is a worthless abstraction, why would you call it a reality? Your methodology for determining what's real is completely dependent upon you being alive, but you're saying life will go on without you?

I'm not a solipsist. I know people die every day and life goes on, why would it be any different for my death? However, the only reality I've ever experienced has its existence completely dependent on me. That's what's going to be lost when I die, and that's the only reality I've ever known. Isn't that what matters, and not the idea of reality?

That's the death of reality to you, what you speak of is a worthless abstraction, why would you call it a reality? — Judaka

Because reality continues even if you discontinue.

That’s real, deny it all if you wish.

But life goes on with or without you right. I have no problem with such solipsism such as yours but it fundamentally rejects reality. — invicta

All solipsism rejects is the idea of absolute reality, analogous to special relativity's rejection of absolute motion. Solipsists are able to reconcile their surface-level disagreements by transforming the meaning of each other's assertions to fit their own frame of reference, in a manner analogous to using a Lorentz transformation.

So it isn't necessarily contradictory to assert that one is immortal from one's own perspective, yet mortal from another's perspective.

Perhaps it helps if the problem is simplified…

If a tree falls in the woods, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

So it isn't necessarily contradictory to assert that one is immortal from one's own perspective, yet mortal from another's perspective. — sime

The old adage: I intend to live forever, so far so good.
——
Imagine Tom, Dick and Harry having a solipsistic conversation.

Tom says: Neither of you exist, i’m just having a hallucination.

Dick Says: that may be so but I’m completely sober and your drugs will wear off soon and I will still be here.

Harry Says: drugs ? What drugs.

Harry of course is a schizophrenic and Tom and Dick are just two of his multiple personalities.

Faced with such a transcript who actually exists here ?

Why would this topic of "being given existence but only for a limited time" "only a problem for ... atheists"? — 180 Proof

Because atheists believe that it is only for a limited time.

It seems only a problem for the believer who expects there to be more to life and nature than this life — 180 Proof

Why is it a problem for believers? It should not make a believer feel powerless since physical life itself is the very opportunity to carry out God's plan and receive the reward. It's close to the opposite of powerlessness.

Sometimes as Christians we are not always aware of gods plan for us. This applies to most of us or other faiths of a monotheistic nature. On the subject of eternal life which this topic is about that is a promise and a given in the bible for those who do believe.

as a rational being however even this precept doesn’t leave this concept open to doubt but I believe thats the upside of faith rather than it’s downside.

I doubt even JC knew whilst he was on the cross.

I’m reminded of Rolling Stones - sympathy for the devil

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long years
Stole million man's soul an faith
And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

I have attempted synthesis of various spiritual ideas which even the atheist might find useful as to the nature of consciousness.

What's real? Reality? Reality as in, the term that refers to all that's real? That reality is real? And it's going to continue after my death? I guess I'll never be able to find out, that's too bad.

I’m not quite sure what your doubt concerning reality is about if I’m honest.

The world existing independently of us is a given in the OP at least. So your questions seem slightly redundant.

My questions were rhetorical...

If you see what I've said as a rejection of reality, then either I've expressed myself poorly or you haven't made much of an effort to understand what I said. Either way, we'll have to leave it at that, I've lost interest.

It’s ok to lose interest, I mean it’s only eternal life that’s at stake. No biggie.

Because atheists believe that it is only for a limited time. — Hallucinogen

Yes, so our expectation is met and I, like most other nonbelievers, don't see only this one life as a problem. In fact, the low, or mininal, existential expectations of rational nonbelief cannot be disappointed, and only surprised if we're wrong. I like surprises. :wink:

Why is it a problem for believers?

Because all they have is a 'hope for more than this life' without any factual basis, just wishful thinking. Whatever seems too good to be true (e.g. "eternal life") is almost certainly not true. The believer's problem is (as always) s/he can't shake fearing what s/he undeniably knows: reality withstands faith. :pray: :eyes:

The believer's problem is (as always) s/he can't shake fearing what s/he undeniably knows: reality withstands faith. :pray: :eyes: — 180 Proof

If reality whatever we may agree that to be is eternal and persists when we do not (as in dead) then that same state of affairs which granted a rational being with imagination and the desire to live forever (me included) requires no great leap of faith to at least consider it as a possibility.

If there is a possibility or a potential of something happening i.e. winning the lotto or in this instance eternal life then the question is one of likelihood not impossibility.

It also might be a "possibility" that a droplet from the spray of a crashing ocean wave lasts as long as the ocean wave or even the ocean itself, but that is, like the idea that you were never born, invicta, only a mere possibility.

Category error – e.g. a metaphysical concept of "eternal life" in terms of, or equated to, a physical "likelihood".

A metaphysical concept of "eternal life" in terms of a physical "likelihood"? Category error. — 180 Proof

Never claimed that. Even reincarnation gets tedious after a while.

Your drop in the ocean however is apt and along my lines of metaphysic.

My point is only this: while it makes sense to say "I hope I win the lottery", it does not make sense to say "I hope I never die".

The difference is that I state it in its affirmative…I wanna live forever.

It’s just if you’re gonna dream, dream big right …?

And yet hope has no place in philosophy.

And yet I embrace eternal (sleep) and eternal life as two possibilities.

Likely or unlikely for each one is a matter of metaphysical realisation not rationalisation.

metaphysical realisation not realization — invicta

The ultimate (excuse the pun :smirk:) "rationalization".

in that case you do not dismiss the “possibility” of non-physical eternal life.

If you do dismiss it then on what grounds, sir?

I don't dismiss the mere possibility of "non-physical eternal life", I just don't think it makes sense to say "I hope I never die."

I just don't think it makes sense to say "I hope I never die." — 180 Proof

Why? Do you think it’s childish ?

Grow up!

I just find it a massive tease to be granted existence and yet only experience it for a brief spell. — invicta

My son, you make Tevye proud! — ucarr

Essentially my actions and life and all my accomplishments being reduced to nothing. — invicta

Beware Albert Camu! — ucarr

The eternal is unchanging. — Count Timothy von Icarus

What makes you an expert on the eternal to make such a blanket statement. I have no idea myself perhaps you could elaborate? — invicta

Do you have a clear idea in your mind what the eternal is ? Perhaps tell us before making statements such as these on it. — invicta

In a cave one parsec from Sol, some writing on the wall was discovered: from the secret pages of a classified document: It's the critic's job to hoist intelligent complaints inside the heart of paradise; Where would Eden be without designs of the serpent; deity is m.c. to a conflict-driven, cosmic entertainment: human.

Deity: "Alright now, invicta. As the winner of our vocal-sparring-for spite-contest, you're given choice of eternal life. Say "yes" and it's yours. The offer, however, does come with conditions. You must agree to one of two choices: a) become chief literary critic for a tony New York-based magazine or b) become maven of a Washington-based gossip column rivaling the caustic bitchery of Hoover. And your choice is?"

Well I choose the bitchery of course, assuming of course that there are bitches.

Whoo hoo! Eternal life!!

:up:

Do you think it’s childish ?

Grow up! — invicta

:lol:

It certainly makes me feel powerless.