I would settle under protest for mere submachine guns though grenades and bazookas never killed anyone on their own and are no more dangerous than cars in that respect. As long as the government continues to give in to such irrational arguments we will continue to be punished for the crimes of others and our utopia must wait. — Baden

This is why I have a nuclear submarine off the coast of Europe: to deal with the rampant sarcasm over there.

:lol:

Though by that measure, we might have to judge @NOS4A2 as being sarcastic too as I honestly don't believe he'd disagree with anything I've said.

Then why don’t you put everyone in prison? You’ll eliminate violence entirely.

You wouldn't deny me an armoured vehicle or grenade launcher, would you @NOS4A2? As long as I was competent to use them.

I doubt I could muster enough conceit to find any desire to control your's or anyone else's life.

Then why don’t you put everyone in prison? You’ll eliminate violence entirely. — NOS4A2

Because that's a far greater injustice than the injustice it tries to solve.

I'm against the death penalty because of the possibility of false convictions, and killing innocent people is a greater injustice than whatever injustice would follow from not killing guilty people.

I'm not against taking away people's guns, because taking away good people's guns isn't a greater injustice than the injustice that would follow from not taking away bad people's guns.

It's a utilitarian approach to choose between injustices. There's always going to be injustice, that's just a fact of life. A good society is one that knows how to weigh one injustice against another.

I think murderers and criminals will think twice about harming others if they know everyone is packing. — NOS4A2

I think it far more likely that the collateral damage might become great enough for you to rethink the whole thing. No one would be safe. You cannot protect against a hail of bullets coming from every direction with a gun.

Plenty to say about mental health, but this is not a mental health issue, ... — Mikie

You don't think kids committing mass murders is a mental health issue?

Ok then.

I doubt I could muster enough conceit to find any desire to control your's or anyone else's life. — NOS4A2

Thanks for biting the grenade on that. The idea of allowing everyone to have whatever weapon takes their fancy / they can afford is cool in a sort of Mad Max way. I'm sure it would eventually result in good behaviour and a perfectly peaceful society (because everyone would be dead).

So injustice is beneficial so long as it suits your concerns. I cannot abide by that, myself.

Though by that measure, we might have to judge NOS4A2 as being sarcastic too as I honestly don't believe he'd disagree with anything I've said. — Baden

It's hard to say. Over time, I've come to realize that he holds his views sincerely. I have to respect that.

I think it far more likely that the collateral damage might become great enough for you to rethink the whole thing. No one would be safe. You cannot protect against a hail of bullets coming from every direction with a gun.

Perhaps. But I doubt if everyone owned a gun people would start shooting each other.

You don't think kids committing mass murders is a mental health issue? — Tzeentch

The Nashville shooter is 28. "Kids" aren't committing the vast majority of these mass murders. Adults are.

Perhaps. But I doubt if everyone owned a gun people would start shooting each other. — NOS4A2

Not everyone would start shooting each other, but more would. Or do you think that if more people have guns then fewer people would use them?

Average age of a mass shooter in the U.S. is 33 btw just to put @Tzeentch's misleading claims into context.

https://rockinst.org/gun-violence/mass-shooting-factsheet/

I don't think it's likely that someone would start shooting if he knew that everyone else would start shooting back.

I believe he was talking about school shooters in particular.

"Records show 70% of school shootings since 1999 have been carried out by people under 18: report"

https://www.insider.com/seven-ten-us-school-shooters-known-ages-children-under-18-2022-5

I’m pretty sure all these school shooters know that the police are going to kill them. A lot of them even kill themselves. The threat of ”mutually assured destruction” might work for international relations, but it won’t against the types of person who will mindlesly kill innocents.

But that the shooter chose a softer target than one of higher security shows that she at least thought twice about it, I think.

Are we not talking about mass shootings here? @Tzeentch mentioned "mass murder" so I presume we are. The above includes anyone who got shot in a school, including very young kids who got their hands on their parents guns and likely didn't know what they were doing. That's a different issue.

I'm only saying that I think Tzeentch was writing about school shootings in particular, if his initial post is any indication. If so, his claims aren't that misleading.

You don't think kids committing mass murders is a mental health issue?

Ok then. — Tzeentch

If countries with the same rate of mental health issues have a lower rate of mass shootings then something other than mental health must explain the higher rate of mass shootings. One explanation is the higher rate of gun ownership. Another is that there is something almost unique about US culture and upbringing that people are more violent than in more civilised countries. Perhaps their obsession with gun ownership fuels that.

I don't think it's likely that someone would start shooting if he knew that everyone else would start shooting back. — NOS4A2

It is not a question of what a potential murdered would do but of what others think he will do.

got it right. I was talking primarily about school shootings, but obviously similarly motivated mass murders can be viewed through the mental health lens as well.

The thing with children committing these acts is that it shows how early the cart has gone completely off the rails. When it's an adult we can easily attribute it to their individual "messed up nature", while with kids it's a lot more complicated. They aren't fully responsible for their actions.

Another is that there is something almost unique about US culture and upbringing that people are “naturally” more violent than in more civilised countries. — Michael

An option worth investigating, don't you think?

And I don't think the keyword is "violence" here.

I believe what drives actions like these is an incredible resentment, hatred, a desire for revenge, etc.

Is no one but me interested in what exactly causes such an amount of hate to manifest in relatively young children?

That's not normal where I'm from.

I believe what drives actions like these is an incredible resentment, hatred, a desire for revenge, etc.

Is no one but me interested in what exactly causes such an amount of hate to manifest in relatively young children?

That's not normal where I'm from. — Tzeentch

But is there more resentment and hatred in Americans than in, say, Brits? Or is it the same, and it’s just that Americans have more guns and so more violent means to express their resentment and hatred?

It’s certainly important to consider why people do what they do, but it’s also important to consider what enables them to do what they do. And it might be easier and faster to limit their opportunities than to limit their motivations.

The Nashville shooter is 28. "Kids" aren't committing the vast majority of these mass murders. Adults are. Stop making stuff up. — Baden

Had you made the minimal effort to read the discussion you were interjecting yourself into, you would have seen what I had said about it earlier:

I don't live in America, but is the question as to why children (or in this case a young adult) are committing mass murders ever raised? Because I always find that conspicuously absent from any discussion. — Tzeentch

If countries with the same rate of mental health issues have a lower rate of mass shootings then something other than mental health must explain the higher rate of mass shootings. — Michael

Which countries would that be?
Also, there are different kinds of mental unhealth and not all of them result in mass shootings. The prevailing mental health problem in the US seems to lead to a certain percentage of mass shooters. Other countries might have mental health issues that result in less violent reactions.

One explanation is the higher rate of gun ownership. — Michael

I think that could be part of the explanation. Its hard to settle on a specific breakdown of contributing factors but it seems to me that mental health is a significant factor yet gets ignored by and large. Mental health care in the states is horrible, and its unsurprising mental sickness seems so abundant there.

So injustice is beneficial so long as it suits your concerns. I cannot abide by that, myself. — NOS4A2

And I cannot abide by the claim that you being able to own a gun is more important than a child being safer from gun violence.

It’s certainly important to consider why people do what they do, but it’s also important to consider what enables them to do what they do. — Michael

Guns certainly don't help in making these tragedies less deadly. That's for sure.

But is there more resentment and hatred in Americans than in, say, Brits? — Michael

That's the question, isn't it?

If the answer were no, wouldn't we expect to see similar events carried out with other weapons happening in the UK? People have committed massacres with common household objects like kitchen knives. Stomach churning to think about it, but alas there it is...

Americans are from outer space. I don't think you're taking that into consideration. We evolved in a different galaxy, so you have no frame of reference for understanding us.