• Antony Nickles
    1.1k
    Kripke once laid out the skeptic’s conclusion in an argument about foundations:

    There was [and is] no fact about me that constituted my having meant [or meaning].... — As quoted by Stanley Cavell in The Argument of the Ordinary, p. 76.--emphasis in original, brackets in Cavell's quote

    Cavell reads this not as a devastating discovery ("is anything real!"), but as a truth: Yes! There is no fact about you which constitutes your actions and speech. Your authority is not based on, say, your "thought" or "intention" that you feel is the "meaning" represented in what you say (Wittgenstein shows that actions have individual criteria categorizing each type of act). Cavell says “…the state, of your (inner) life cannot take its importance from anything special in it.” Claim of Reason, p. 361.

    We can be distinguished, have differences, be unequal, but we are not singular in a given way, as if we have a unique relation to the world (say, causal), or others (having "knowledge" of them), not even in our position to ourselves (imagined as direct), say, our "consciousness", or in having our meaning--something unpossessable by any other. (Of course we can have individual experiences outside of language--like seeing a sunset that leaves us speechless--but those instances don't structure our relation to ourselves and others.)

    So we also have more in common than we want to admit—what is common is prior to you (history, culture, language). Id. We should not start divided unless there is a need for a distinction. It's true that in starting with each other, we do have our assumptions, generalizations, and dichotomies; we do feel we need to be personally individuated by our opinions, labels, and camps. And understanding the other is harder than seeing words we know and coming to a quick conclusion from our anxiety to be distinct (superior, clever, unique, etc.), and it's harder to remain puzzled than simplifying the other to maintain our sense of "me". (PI, p. 212)

    We want (require) certainty (some fact, as if mathematical, "objective") in the world and/or ourselves to avoid being responsible to others' judgment of us outside our control, either wishing to be mysterious or wanting sole power over the effects of what we say and do instead of taking on the continuing responsibility of owning up to the outcomes of our acts and words. There is nothing you know (even, about yourself) or have or are, that removes that human condition of accepting (or rejecting) the other; that is to say, these are the categorical mechanics of our relation to others, not each of us having some individual fact about us, but each of us being separate yet responsive to the other.
  • javi2541997
    5.8k


    Interesting OP.

    I agree with the text and your arguments. Yet, I personally believe that is quite complex to achieve. I mean: interact with others and avoiding a positive/negative judgment. It seems to be inherited in human's conditions. On one side, we have the real version of ourselves, and on the other, the image that others have of me. There is even a paradox because we are debating on a topic about not being special, but I started by saying that I consider your OP as "interesting"... Does it make it "special"?

    I am aware of not being special, and  if I think otherwise, it makes me look arrogant. We are ordinary people living quotidian lives. Sooner or later, we're all going to die, and that's a fact. A solution to this issue, could be a homogeneous civilization. Not having superior or "special" persons among us. Nonetheless, I think it is impossible to reach out in such equal circumstances. It is in our nature to be competitive with one another. Another solution would be ethics. Behaviour management in terms of respecting each other. I guess the latter is more feasible.

    By the way, maybe my arguments are suitable for mediocre thinkers...
  • Antony Nickles
    1.1k
    Sorry, I didn't make clear that the "special" I am arguing against is not being distinguished, more intelligent, unequal in social or economic position (I've tried to edit that into the OP). What I am trying to root out is the idea that we have an individual "consciousness" or "thoughts" or "our" "meaning"--say, as casual or which is "me".

    That being said, saying "we have the real version of ourselves" makes me nervous because, although we might have secrets (and from ourselves as well) and can present a facade (a false "image") there is not a "real" version of us that we "have" by default, much as the world is without a "reality".

    But, yes, we are all ordinary humans, individual as separate bodies, but under the same condition/human situation. Reaching out from this state does not seem "impossible", and it is our (political, cultural, economic) circumstances that are the hurdle we must reach over. But, yes, this is an ethical plea as well; if our internal state of affairs are not direct, determinate, controlling--as if metaphysical, or physically (scientifically) distinctive--then our ordinary words and concepts are enough, if we let them be.
  • Darkneos
    689
    I disagree. I think we do have a real version of ourselves, possibly by default. We also have an individual consciousness so long as you have a working brain, and thoughts and meaning.

    In a sense everyone is special, I can't understand or relate to the majority of other people due to being on the spectrum. Yet even my own experience of being on the spectrum is different from others like me who are on the spectrum.

    I'd also disagree on "There is no fact about you which constitutes your actions", this is obviously false. Just to use my case for example, being like this definitely constitutes my actions. Cavell was just wrong.

    (Of course we can have individual experiences outside of language--like seeing a sunset that leaves us speechless--but those instances don't structure our relation to ourselves and others.)Antony Nickles

    Frankly, you don't know that to be the case.
  • Antony Nickles
    1.1k
    If you're interested, I rewrote the OP to be, I hope, clearer.
  • Antony Nickles
    1.1k
    I'll try this one more time. Dismissing someone out of hand is doing you no favors in being able to learn anything new, and no one wants to respond to someone who just says they are wrong because of your opinion. I suggest seeing what you agree with first and then asking questions about the parts you don't understand and just wait on what you think you disagree with. Also, my object this to get you to see something you may be missing, not that I know something I can prove to you; so if you don't see it, and won't let me help you possibly to, I can't force anything on you, say "logically" or factually (you in a sense have to see it for yourself). Also,,I clarified the original post.
  • Darkneos
    689
    Well it's not working. It's also kind patently clear that some parts of this are just flat out wrong or making leaps that don't really track, like why we allegedly need certainty or that there are no "Facts" about us.

    The lack of replies would also lead me to believe no one really finds value in the OP so there's nothing to really learn.

    Like, Cavell is just flat out wrong in is quote.

    In fact the only reason I replied was because if the title and because you posted on my thread before. Other than that there is nothing here but questionable leaps in logic.
  • Jamal
    9.6k
    The lack of replies would also lead me to believe no one really finds value in the OP so there's nothing to really learn.Darkneos

    I don’t think so. It’s a good OP. It just takes a bit more time and thought to reply to it compared to many others. I suggest you stop posting in this discussion if you don’t have anything intelligent to say.
  • javi2541997
    5.8k
    If you're interested, I rewrote the OP to be, I hope, clearer.Antony Nickles

    Thank you for your effort. I really like your OP but it is complex. It is not on you but on the topic itself.

    (Of course we can have individual experiences outside of language--like seeing a sunset that leaves us speechless--but those instances don't structure our relation to ourselves and others.)Antony Nickles

    This point is interesting and I disagree in a fact. There are activities that can only be enjoyed individually. Your example is good. Looking at a sunset. Each individual would interpret the sunset in different ways. Some would write a poem, others would not care if they were not sensible enough. This example reminds me of an essay by Mishima. This author defends that the art can only be understood in loneliness, thus a pure individualism. I agree with him, and I think that not all facts around us depend on each other's cooperation.

    But, yes, we are all ordinary humans, individual as separate bodies, but under the same condition/human situation.Antony Nickles

    Paradoxically, it is ordinary men who make others feel intelligent or superior. Most people tend to follow a leader because it seems "necessary." Such leaders hold something that we (the followers) don't. So, to reach a real ordinariness, we have to stay away from the "mass" of other ordinary people (I do not know if I expressed myself well).
  • Antony Nickles
    1.1k
    There are activities that can only be enjoyed individuallyjavi2541997

    I think I was trying to say the same thing. What I meant was that, yes, we have singular experiences but there is nothing that ensures our individuality (nothing taking the place of the metaphysical "mind").

    to reach a real ordinariness, we have to stay away from the "mass" of other ordinary people.javi2541997

    And I agree here as well I believe. Emerson calls it aversion to conformity in Self Relience; Nietszche will call it rising above (roughly). The idea of a shared culture and language can be turned from, or continued on, or, as Wittgenstin will say, torn down and built again from the rubble (PI 118)(not, however, gotten outside of, even if only a scream or a splotch of paint).

    My point would only be that this: I Am!, is an action, a process; who we define ourselves to be, say, against the crowd, is not given to us as an inherent fact. People believe they have "thoughts", and those are precious gems that come from who they are, their identity as a singular person, something special from inside only them, when most of the time they are platitudes or regurgitation--though sometimes what is common is most true (it all depends). As Heidegger says: what is most thought-provoking is that we are not yet thinking.

    Thank for taking the time to read it again, and I hope that makes it clearer if you are interested @Jamal
  • Darkneos
    689
    My point would only be that this: I Am!, is an action, a process; who we define ourselves to be, say, against the crowd, is not given to us as an inherent fact. People believe they have "thoughts", and those are precious gems that come from who they are, their identity as a singular person, something special from inside only them, when most of the time they are platitudes or regurgitation--though sometimes what is common is most true (it all depends). As Heidegger says: what is most thought-provoking is that we are not yet thinking.Antony Nickles

    So we are products of our environment. That's not really news, it's been a thing in psychology for a while.

    I think I was trying to say the same thing. What I meant was that, yes, we have singular experiences but there is nothing that ensures our individuality (nothing taking the place of the metaphysical "mind").Antony Nickles

    There is some amount of evidence against this. Who we are essentially comes down to genes, environment, and culture. Though somethings seem more or less innate to being human like how cultures around the world have similar structures but also key differences. Also how murder is generally looked down upon. There is plenty that ensures our individuality. Even the influences around us aren't a total guarantee of how we'll turn out.
  • javi2541997
    5.8k
    I think I was trying to say the same thing. What I meant was that, yes, we have singular experiences but there is nothing that ensures our individuality (nothing taking the place of the metaphysical "mind").Antony Nickles

    I see your point now, and yes, I think we are reaching the same conclusion in this debate. It is true that it is very difficult to get pure individualism. This doesn't happen even in the most abandoned environments. There are thinkers who critique globalization for exactly this reason. In nowadays, everything is connected worldwide and tends to be ephemeral.

    On the other hand, there are some contexts where we can find out a person's level of individuality. I think art can be an example of this. Let me share with you an anecdote. 
    I am sensible towards nature, and one day I was observing the sunset. I said: "wow this is so poetic, look at the tones of purple and orange in the sky. It is gorgeous..." 
    But then, a girl (who is a mathematician) said: There is nothing special at all, sunset is scientific evidence, which is explained with the mathematical formulas, bla bla bla...
    Here we have two different persons who observe the world so differently. Then, a level of "individuality" was reached that day. To be honest, I think the girl felt herself so special because of her ability to explain the physics of a sunset :roll:

    As Heidegger says: what is most thought-provoking is that we are not yet thinking.Antony Nickles

    :clap: :100:
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