Do you want me to use you as a kung fu training dummy? I'm pretty sure you would waste my time. Bing Chat at least gets my references. They would fly over your head.

I'm sorry you feel attacked all the time. But you really aren't very good at engaging with people constructively, or putting together an argument. A site like this is bound to expose this, unfortunately.

, hatred can also fuel politics.
Some campaigners focus on degrading their opponents, whereas others focus on telling listeners what they would do if elected.
Occasionally, I've found this an easy indicator.

I'm sorry you feel attacked all the time. — unenlightened

I'm not (sorry, that is). It's exactly what I expect given my provocative approach. I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your complaint about antagonistic approaches that was itself antagonistic.

But you really aren't very good at engaging with people constructively, or putting together an argument. — unenlightened

I'm a qualified, experienced professor with decades of teaching behind me, several publications to my name and a good career in both advocacy and consultancy. I don't have any reason to be concerned. There's a social structure here which perpetuates a particular attitude. That's of interest to me to explore. So I do.

Accusations. — T Clark

The book banning? To clarify:

According to PEN America, there were 2,532 instances of book bans between July 2021 and June 2022. This number is staggering, especially when you consider these are just the bans PEN America is aware of — it’s unclear how many challenges and bans there are that haven’t been reported.

Texas came in first as the state with the largest number of book bans at 713, followed by Pennsylvania with a striking 456 bans, Florida with 204, Oklahoma with 43, Kansas with 30 and Tennessee with 16, according to the report.

The only other accusation I made was against the Texas legislature and there was nothing vague in the reference I supplied.

I don't see the marginalizing or suppressing of their expression.

I'm a qualified, experienced professor with decades of teaching behind me, s — Isaac

There's a lot of them about. Teaching, as currently practiced is very much a one way authoritarian affair. Decades of teaching is a poor qualification for a conversation. And of course it is no support at all for the efficacy of your communication here.

The problem with this is that it prescinds not only from what politicians do and say but what they attempt to do, and the efficacy with which they can get it done.

I believe it is time to re-evaluate your priorities and focus on your life and making it better instead of directing your anger and other negative emotions towards people you probably don't even know personally. — AntonioP

It is the focus on one's own life and the concern to make it better that is at the root of the issue. I do not have to know someone personally to know what he or she is doing as an elected official.

Not only the US; rabid conservatism has been showing up all over the world, polluting democracies everywhere. Hungary - so recently liberated from what the communist ideal was corrupted to by Russian aspirations to world domination - has recently become the poster child for right-wing assholity. The UK has divorced its entire continent under a conservative government... What did Boris think, he could get people to row the whole island over to Virginia Beach?

This a backlash to everything progressive that's been accomplished in the last six or seven decades. It's aided by electronic media and sensationalist news reportage. — Vera Mont

These are the vague accusations I was speaking of.

These are the vague accusations I was speaking of. — T Clark

Oh. I didn't mean those as accusations, so much as descriptions. But I can bring them into better focus.

The far right embodies the worst of the European ideological tradition: exclusive nationalist essentialism, counter-Enlightenment dogmatism and political authoritarianism. Its message today is based on three core ideas: chauvinistic and ethnic exaltation of the nation; anti-immigrant xenophobia; and “anti-politician”, anti-establishment populism. In this regard, the far right offers its followers an exclusive identity, singles out the culprits (the establishment) and advocates simple and expeditious solutions (throw out the foreigners, overthrow the “political class”).

which is what I meant by rabid right.
Then, what I meant by all over the world:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-45902454 In Brazil, a broad coalition of conservative groups helped push President Dilma Rouseff out of power in 2016, amid protests about widespread corruption
Ukraine has seen radical national activists protest against Russian interference, while socially conservative groups focused on religious and family values have also grown
In Thailand, conservative social movements seen as anti-democratic have helped to underpin military rule
In India, Hindu nationalists have gained influence as supporters of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's policies, including moves to strip four million people of citizenship
Islamist civil society in Turkey has thrived in tandem with the rule of the Justice and Development party
In Poland, a powerful conservative civil society now works closely with the Law and Justice government, which brought in a range of measures tightening control over the judiciary

And Orban:

...over the past decade, Orbán has become something of a hero to conservatives throughout Europe, and has piqued the interest of the American right wing as well.....“It’s not just his anti-immigration stance or his moral traditionalism,” Douthat wrote. “It’s that his interventions in Hungarian cultural life, the attacks on liberal academic centers and the spending on conservative ideological projects, are seen as examples of how political power might curb progressivism’s influence.”

and Johnson

Boris Johnson was the man who delivered England Brexit. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-07-07/boris-johnson-legacy-defined-by-brexit-and-scandal/100769902

Quite specific I'd've thought.

Quite specific — Vera Mont

Thanks. When I pointed out to you that your claims were just as vague as mine, I hoped that would be the end of the discussion. Now you've put in the effort to be more specific and probably expect that I will do the same, but I'm not really interested in putting in that effort. I stand behind my claims from behind an impenetrable shield of ambiguity.

Decades of teaching is a poor qualification for a conversation. And of course it is no support at all for the efficacy of your communication here. — unenlightened

Oh. So what is?

Oh. So what is? — Isaac

R.E.S.P.E.C.T. An indication of respect is the attempt to charitably understand your interlocutor and then, if one disagrees, to politely explain where one thinks the other has gone wrong, rather than pour scorn and ridicule upon them.

Not, of course that such is universally how I or anyone behaves all the time. But when that is not what happens, the conversation deteriorates. Pulling rank, as you have just done is disrespectful as well as a very poor argument.

Not, of course that such is universally how I or anyone behaves all the time. — unenlightened

Exactly. Because we all have criteria for when we think that inappropriate (past experiences, offense, context...). We don't always extend charity because we don't always consider it the right course of action.

You didn't charitably try to interpret my comment. You assumed it was exactly as it seemed to you at first (an attempt to unjustly ridicule a reasonable response).

You could have considered it a well-meaning attempt to robustly challenge an attitude to pedagogic teaching which causes misery to entire generations of innocent children.

You could have sympathised with the urgency and passion with which I opposed the notion that core Republican voters (mostly poor, rural conservatives) need to be taught how to think properly, rather than just given decent jobs, decent prospects and a decent healthcare system.

But you didn't. You felt this was not a time for charity. This, you thought, was a time for robust attack.

We all feel that sometimes.

This, you thought, was a time for robust attack. — Isaac

I'm sorry you feel attacked all the time. I am not trying to attack you, I am trying to get you to understand something about the way you come across on this site, not just to me, and not just in this thread, but to many people in many threads. Your response is to accuse me of failings I have just admitted to, as if that make me worse than you.

We all feel that sometimes. — Isaac

Yes we do. But you seem to feel it nearly all the time, and in relation to nearly everyone you discuss with. Perhaps I have missed all your respectful conversations with others, and only seen your attacking ones. Perhaps you can point me to some of your more charitable posts.

I'm a qualified, experienced professor with decades of teaching behind me — Isaac

:rofl: :lol: :rofl:

you seem to feel it nearly all the time, and in relation to nearly everyone you discuss with. Perhaps I have missed all your respectful conversations with others, and only seen your attacking ones. Perhaps you can point me to some of your more charitable posts. — unenlightened

Odd. I would have thought if one were going to make a public accusation such as you've done, that checking first to see if it's actually true would be the bare minimum amount of prior research.

But maybe I'm just having another one of my antagonist turns.

The mental act of moving a person into an in-group or out-group will breed the sort of hatred you’re speaking about. When that happens, all individual and unique characteristics inherent in each human being becomes diluted with the characteristics you attribute to the group as a whole. Unfortunately, this act is a sine qua non of collectivist politics.

Now you've put in the effort to be more specific and probably expect that I will do the same, — T Clark

Not at all; I routinely make the effort to clarify my position, out of a personal distaste for ambiguity. I don't expect anyone to share it. Wondering about where and how conservative values were suppressed was a mere passing whimsy.

Critical thinking skills are indeed essential. As is walking.

Did anyone 'teach' you to walk? — Isaac

I think teaching critical thinking in schools is a good idea but it's a relatively new one. What I think Isaac is pointing to is that it's likely few of us esteemed members of TPF had such a privilege yet we seemed to have turned out OK, so why therefore should it be necessary for the good citizens of Texas. Is there something patronizing in that? It's a curt way to make the point but nothing that should have led to controversy in my humble opinion.

Politicians and commentators on behalf of political parties rely on demeaning and degrading their opponents to attract attention and gain support. — AntonioP

This is particularly true of American politics in the last 2-3 decades. Here in Australia, the state I live in recently had a State election, and it was a highly civil affair, with leaders of both parties maintaining a focus on policy and principles rather than personal attacks and criticism. And in fact generally speaking Australian (and I think English) politics is considerably less vituperative and spiteful that US politics, especially since the Orange Emperor's reign.

I understand The Passion of Donald Trump is complete. Can't wait till tomorrow, when the disciples find Mar-a-Lago empty. (Psst. Look in Trump International Golf Links, in Scotland.)

I understand The Passion of Donald Trump is complete. Can't wait till tomorrow, when the disciples find Mar-a-Lago empty. — Vera Mont

:rofl: OMG stop I can't :lol: :lol: :lol:

:pray: :lol:

Unfortunately, this act is a sine qua non of collectivist politics. — NOS4A2

The culprit here is the autocratic mindset, usually, though not exclusively, the predominant attribute of conservative & reactionary ideologies. :mask:

What I think Isaac is pointing to is that it's likely few of us esteemed members of TPF had such a privilege yet we seemed to have turned out OK, so why therefore should it be necessary for the good citizens of Texas. Is there something patronizing in that? — Baden

Yes, that's indeed the point. I find something quite offensive in people who have not been taught critical thinking skills (presumably getting by on the basis of their own superhuman natural talent) suggesting that others (lacking such natural brilliance as themselves) need to be taught these skills. The evidence for this...? They disagree with these born savants about voting Democrat.

It's about as gross a classist condescension as it gets.

"We, the born clever, have to teach you, the born stupid, how to think so that you vote properly for our preferred candidate"

It's about as gross a classist condescension as it gets. — Isaac

Yes, I think this is how some progressives seem to operate. Echos of Hilary's, "Basket of deplorables'.

I think this is how some progressives seem to operate. Echos of Hilary's, "Basket of deplorables'. — Tom Storm

Yeah, and far from recognising such approaches as being instrumental in the rise of populism we've seen these last few years, these people have, since then, seemed if anything to 'double down' on those tactics, in defiance of their very obvious failure to work.

But then I've long since given up the notion that modern progressive have any interest at all in actually getting a progressive agenda securely put in place. It seems for most it's far more important to be wearing the right badge than it is taking any steps that might demonstrably be shown to actually yield progress in the real world.

Often feels that way to me too.

The culprit here is the autocratic mindset, usually, though not exclusively, the predominant attribute of conservative & reactionary ideologies. :mask:

Conservative, communist, socialist, fascist, progressive—all collectivist. Besides some variations in rhetoric, it’s hard to see any difference between them in practice. They want power and to tell people how to live their lives.

There's a social structure here which perpetuates a particular attitude. That's of interest to me to explore. So I do. — Isaac

Feel free to tell, please. Findings?

^{(The usual admin/mod/member/... are common online. The forum denizens are a varied lot, though probably not with the same distribution as the world at large.)}

They want power and to tell people how to live their lives. — NOS4A2

All of them...? :brow:

I stand behind my claims from behind an impenetrable shield of ambiguity. — T Clark

:up: