Your calm input is always welcome in such a stormy issue. It's just a pity that so many humans are still so obsessed with fiercely conserving traditional binary sexual identity or are obsessed with fiercely declaring the 'boundaries' of their own sexual identity, as a kind of 'this far AND NO FURTHER' dictate. My personal het cis identity is NOT threatened/compromised/challenged/offended/abused etc by the non-binary sexual identity of a minority group of folks who are just trying to be who and what they are.

If you're not one of the popular girls or boys you're somehow less of a girl or boy. This is an observable psychological phenomenon. Where insults such as "coward", "loser", or "freak" come from. — Outlander

This exists regardless of personal sexual identity, in fact most 'bully' situations I witnessed or heard about during my time as a child or during my career as a teacher, had nothing to do with sexual identity, some did, but very few, by comparison.

I don't want the State or someone representative of the State to start running at them with a bottle of pills in one hand and a scalpel in the other telling a small child "there's something wrong with them" and as their parent I'm either morally, or if some have their way, perhaps even legally, abusive if I stand in the way of such. — Outlander

That is such an overblown emotive set of images that do nothing but add fuel to the flames, especially when you are in fact offering nothing more than exaggerated piffle, in the above quote.

So as to avoid a misdiagnosis and as a result unnecessary series of life-changing medical procedures that only worsen or perhaps even create a condition that could otherwise be remedied or very well never existed in the first place. — Outlander

Last night I watched the recent episode of the transatlantic call-in show, I cited earlier in this thread.
The trans man called 'doctor Ben,' who hosted this episode. Recently completed his PHD and changed his on-line name from 'student doctor Ben' to 'Doctor Ben.'
He talked about just 'completing' his 'top surgery,' and how he could not currently lift his arms above his head or take a bath etc and he is going through a myriad of emotions, including regretting getting the surgery done, especially due to the pain he was currently going through due to the 'drains' that were still in him. His co-host 'Arden Hart,' a trans woman said that she felt the exact same way, when she had 'drains' but she felt wonderful after the drains were removed and she had taken another important step towards who and what she wanted to become. As far as I could tell from their exchange, neither of them have had 'bottom surgery.' They both went on to explain that such surgery is frightening and soooooo expensive and sooooooo painful and soooooo disruptive to your life that many trans folks just decide that on balance, they would rather live with the anatomy they have, than go through what they would have to go through to fully transition. They also talked about those trans folks they knew who have fully transitioned and the doubts, regrets, trauma's they went through along the way, but that they are now so much happier. Arden (who is the current partner of the well known atheist debater Matt Dillahunty) went on to explain that she makes her main living in the porn industry and that is the 'pragmatic' reason why she has not had 'bottom surgery.'
It seemed to me that these folks were explaining very clearly that choosing to sexually transition your body via surgery was very traumatic indeed. They were certainly not enthusiastically recommending bottles of pills and surgery knives as a 'simple solution' to any minor who was having a sexual identity crisis. In that show, during calls, they further explained some details about what age you had to be and what consents were required for a minor to undergo any treatment which is deemed 'irreversible.'
So again the imagery you are pushing is irresponsible, exaggerated and untrue.

such surgery is frightening and soooooo expensive and sooooooo painful and soooooo disruptive to your life that many trans folks just decide that on balance, they would rather live with the anatomy they have, than go through what they would have to go through to fully transition. They also talked about those trans folks they knew who have fully transitioned and the doubts, regrets, trauma's they went through along the way, but that they are now so much happier — universeness

The concept of gender fluidity is very clear to me. The only aspect of trans that isn’t clear for me has to do with what I call the difference between the biological and the social body. It seems to me there are two ways of justifying the desire to undergo surgery. The first has to do with ‘signaling’. I want to make it easier for that social community I identify with based on my gender to recognize my own gender, so I signal my gender identity through various means, including name change, clothing and hairstyle modifications. If i choose to also undergo surgery, it is not because I believe that I was born in the wrong biological body but that my social environment isn’t ready to recognize my gender without the help of obvious signaling from me that simplifies the issue for them.
The second way of justifying surgery depends on my belief that, independent of the feedback of my social
community, I was born in the wrong body.
This belief, from the vantage of embodied approaches in psychology, is a bit incoherent, because it assumes the ability to separate physical body from psychological gender. Embodied thinking argues that the physical, the psychological and the social are intertwined so completely that any attempt to locate something like a purely physical aspect of sexuality is nonsensical. Whatever our psychological gender happens to be, this gender defines, shapes , animates and performs our biological sex through how we walk , talk, gesture , perceive and sense our body. The body only exists as what it is in the way it is used , animated , performed. We can never be in the
wrong body because we are not in a body like a thing in a container, we enact a body.

Im not sure if which of these two ways of thinking about one’s sexed body we choose has much relevance to political advocacy surrounding trans. I do suspect, however, that if the first approach is right, then eventually trans surgery will fade away as the social structure becomes more aware and accepting of gender fluidity, and one no longer has to feel one is born into the wrong social body.

If i choose to also undergo surgery, it is not because I believe that I was born in the wrong biological body but that my social environment isn’t ready to recognize my gender without the help of obvious signaling from me that simplifies the issue for them. — Joshs

Well, as a het cis male, I don't really feel qualified to comment on the ruminations of trans folks when it comes to the reasons why a particular trans person may choose surgery.
I have now watched 6 episodes of the transatlantic call in show, so any personal interpretation I offer here would be mostly based on what I have heard stated on that show in the past.
I think the reasons that an individual trans person will 'settle on' when asked to explain why they chose the surgery route, are myriad and certainly number much more than two, even in the broadest sense.
'Born in the wrong body,' 'body dysmorphia,' is certainly involved but it seems to me there are many nuances. Doctor Ben, for example has talked about some tran men decide to keep their lower female anatomy so that they might still have children. He said he would not choose to do so but he understands those that do. There are many purely practical reasons like that, including Arden's reason related to her current role/character/job in the porn industry.

The second way of justifying surgery depends on my belief that, independent of the feedback of my social
community, I was born in the wrong body.
This belief, from the vantage of embodied approaches in psychology, is a bit incoherent, because it assumes the ability to separate physical body from psychological gender. Embodied thinking argues that the physical, the psychological and the social are intertwined so completely that any attempt to locate something like a purely physical aspect of sexuality is nonsensical. Whatever our psychological gender happens to be, this gender defines, shapes , animates and performs our biological sex through how we walk , talk, gesture , perceive and sense our body. The body only exists as what it is in the way it is used , animated , performed. We can never be in the
wrong body because we are not in a body like a thing in a container, we enact a body. — Joshs

I am sure actual trans folks could answer this much better that anything I could offer but I can offer this.
The first caller last night asked the hosts to explain the difference between biological sex and gender.
They have had this question many times. Ben talked about the physical aspects of biological sex that can be altered and those that cant. I remember he mentioned chromosomal sex, hormonal sex, anatomical sex, gametes. Chromosomal sex and gametes were the only two (I think) he said could not be currently 'transitioned,' via surgery or medication.

I do suspect, however, that if the first approach is right, then eventually trans surgery will fade away as the social structure becomes more aware and accepting of gender fluidity, and one no longer has to feel one is born into the wrong social body. — Joshs

I think transgender and transexual are two quite different goals.
I think there are many trans folk that feel they have to do the physical transitions that they can do, in order to become 'happy' or 'true' or perhaps even 'real.'

This exists regardless of personal sexual identity, in fact most 'bully' situations I witnessed or heard about during my time as a child or during my career as a teacher, had nothing to do with sexual identity, some did, but very few, by comparison. — universeness

I never said they did. I said trauma and being ostracized leads to pain, confusion, and wanting "to be different" or being forced to believe you are. Why does someone 'bully' someone? Because they can. Meaning, they're either larger or otherwise have something to hold over the victim the victim does not. Hence, makes one think they're less than themself. Or if you do not go along with my will and desire for you, you're a "scared little girl". Illusory truth effect or bias by repetition. Get it?

the imagery you are pushing — universeness

I literally started with 'the disconnect is' and ended with 'this is the mindset a conservative individual would hold' in the context of the 'pills and scalpel' statement. There is no reasonable reason to assume I sympathize with those who do or are pushing anything other than, once again, no person not a legal and mental adult should be suggested they have gender dysphoria.

I appreciate your defense of the vulnerable. But there's no need to attack the messenger.

Furthermore, please do not accuse me of being 'irresponsible' and 'pushing [intolerant] imagery' again when I have in fact taken great pains to avoid doing so and know I have avoided such perfectly.

Despite my desires for this thread to cool off some. — Outlander

From the perspective of this elderly gay guy, it would be a good idea if the whole alt-gender movement cooled off.

I grew up in a time and place where homosexuality wasn't discussed (except as a very negative reference) and where sexuality was strictly procreative (and better be within the bonds of marriage). It's a different world today. While once what could not speak it's own name, or in the case of transgenders, didn't have a name, is now publicly discussed a lot, and (a small number of) children are making decisions about which gender they want to be.

At the same time, there is a high rate of attempted and successful suicide among young people dealing with these sexuality issues. It is possible that adolescent's psychological distress is, paradoxically, exaggerated by wide open public openness. A lot of public discourse just isn't very helpful.

Pre-Stonewall, many young people (and adults for that matter) (to use the term of those times) who were sexual deviants could hide in a closet (so to speak). Hiding one's sexuality wasn't healthy, but it gave persons time to slowly (and privately) prepare themselves to go public. In addition, there were sort of secret places one could be sexual. When a gay person did decide to go public, they tended to be older adolescents or adults, and had more personal resources to deal with negative public reaction.

Many children are dealing with their various sexual issues openly, and I think they are often doing so without the psychological development to deal with all the issues that they encounter. Social attitudes make life even more difficult. The result is perhaps enough stress that too many seek relief by killing themselves.

The 10 year old who wants to 'be' the opposite sex might be better off if they waited until they are older and have more personal resources available. Will a delay be frustrating? Sure, but it's a question of balancing risk. The risk of too much too soon and death, or delay and better success. There is a huge difference between the experience a 40 year old will have in deciding to publicly transition (even if it is a bumpy ride), and the stress a 14 year old deciding to publicly transition will experience.

I said trauma and being ostracized leads to pain, confusion, and wanting "to be different" or being forced to believe you are. — Outlander

Do you have examples of trans folks expressing that they want to be different? I have heard them on-line and in call in shows, say they want to be who they are.

Why does someone 'bully' someone? — Outlander

This thread is about trans folks yes? and their identity, Not bullies and their rationale.

I appreciate your defense of the vulnerable. But there's no need to attack the messenger. — Outlander

My attack is on the message, not the messenger.

Furthermore, please do not accuse me of being 'irresponsible' and 'pushing [intolerant] imagery' again when I have in fact taken great pains to avoid doing so and know I have avoided such perfectly. — Outlander

No, your attempts to avoid what you claim you wanted to avoid fell far short of 'perfectly,' imo.

I believe that there is a fatal conflict between women's rights and identity and the concept of a trans woman.

I do not understand why people cannot grasp this. This conflict did not seem to exist when only a tiny amount of men identified as women so there was very little chance of a woman having a trans identified man in her weman only space or competing against her.

But I think it was a drastic mistake that I and others went along without thinking that lots of men would start identifying as women.

But to me this now ethically indefensible and cruel. Women are a biologically real and the people who create life and not a feeling in someones head. They are distinct from men in many ways and need protecting in various ways and recognising for themselves as a biological entity.

People are now fallaciously claiming they cannot define what a women is despite the fact we all grew in a woman's womb. This is gross misogyny and we don't give away other groups identities like this. It is wrong to impersonate a black person particularly because of the history racism and slavery and oppression and women have a similar history. And we are flagrantly giving away their rights, security and awards.

And this is one of the things that makes me very angry about this as well as the impact this is having on the gay community and autistic people, vulnerable children and the denial that gender affirming care is harmful.

I believe that there is a fatal conflict between women's rights and identity and the concept of a trans woman. — Andrew4Handel

I'm sympathetic to preserving safe spaces for women, but what do you mean by "fatal"? What horrible thing do you think will eventually happen if biological trans men are accepted as women?

You're not a spokesperson for women on trans rights though, nor is anyone as unsurprisingly their opinions on this and other things vary. Which makes all of that rather patronising, no?

Men are already accepted as women and it has led to men winning awards aimed at biological women including in sports, it has led to them entering domestic violence shelters for women and women's prisons in one case in america two female inmates were impregnated by a trans inmate.

"A transgender inmate has been transferred out of the only women’s prison in New Jersey after impregnating two female inmates."

https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/nj-trans-prisoner-impregnated-2-inmates-transferred-mens-facility-rcna38947

A woman was raped in a women's shelter by a trans identified man.

https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/hunter-trans-woman-sexually-assaulted-shelter-resident-cops

These are women only spaces if you define women as a feeling in someones head and not a biological reality.

fatal conflict — Andrew4Handel

drastic mistake — Andrew4Handel

gross misogyny — Andrew4Handel

flagrantly giving away — Andrew4Handel

makes me very angry — Andrew4Handel

It’s clear that you’re angry. The rhetoric is a sign that you can’t think clearly about this issue. If you’re so angry about it, this is not really the place for you to talk about it.

Otherwise you’re not really arguing for all of these melodramatic phrases. Mostly it’s obvious straw men.

I'm not happy about all that, but I don't see any of that as some sort of existential problem. I'm a little irritated, in fact, at conservatives who couldn't give two shits about women's sports in the past suddenly pretending to care deeply. It's just a convenient way to attack trans people.

You have no right to give away women's rights and safe spaces and nor has woman the right to give away another woman's rights and spaces.

Why would you want to do this anyway?

People are really giving away women's rights, identity and security and this is why I consider this movement has now become a crime in progress.

Women and men are biologically real not feelings or gender identity. Nothing can change this and lying about this is living in a post truth society where we can no longer say we base things on truth value truth or reality.

It is major philosophical issue that I am now addressing in my latest thread. I don't believe you can base society and security around lies indefinitely or preserve coherence.

This is why I am going out of my way outside of this forum to campaign on this issue til I die.

People are giving away women's rights and denying their in some kind or orwellian Stalinesque dystopia.

I don't think your outrage has or is going to convince anyone here, do you?

I thought folks here might find this interesting:
1. A clownfish has two sexes: male and female. They change from one sex to another every month or so.
Clownfish are hermaphrodites (having both male and female reproductive organs) and undergo sexual changes at around five months old. The sex change usually happens after the fish reaches three years old.

2. Hawkfish are fish that live in the ocean and have two sets of genitalia. They are known for being able to change their sex from male to female or vice versa

3. Green sea turtles are known to be the largest living species of turtle. They live in tropical waters around the world. Their lifespan is usually between 50 and 100 years.
Some scientists believe that these turtles are born male and later become female. This theory was supported by the observation that some females had testes during their lifetime.

4. Copperhead snakes are hermaphrodites, meaning they possess both male and female reproductive organs. They can change from one sex to another depending on environmental conditions.

There are 15 more such creatures here

Does this not suggest that biological sex is very mutable in a universe of natural selection and not something we need be so 'ossified' about?

I don't think your outrage has or is going to convince anyone here, do you? — Baden

People are misrepresenting other people's concerns on this so it is pointless having a discussion based on false premises.

But there is a lot of anger on both sides of this debate. J K Rowling and others have recieved copious rape and death threats and cancellation attempts.

And I do believe in the concept and value of righteous anger. The question then is which side is right to be angry and why? And it is a case of who is angry and determined and persuasive enough to get the most attention and influence.

Might work on Twitter. Will fail here.

And I do believe in the concept and value of righteous anger. The question then is which side is right to be angry and why? And it is a case of who is angry and determined and persuasive enough to get the most attention and influence. — Andrew4Handel

Then this is the wrong place for it, because TPF is explicitly not the place for campaigning. It’s in the guidelines.

It really appears to me that you're misreading him. He's saying that there are angry people on both sides. He has a very personal stake in the issue, and has complained that his interlocutors are refusing to listen to his concerns. I don't see the problem with listening to him.

People are misrepresenting other people's concerns on this so it is pointless having a discussion based on false premises. — Andrew4Handel

Don't worry about it. There are plenty of people in the world who are able to listen to you without bias. If you can't find that here, just say "fuck them" and move on.

I am not explicitly trying to campaign on here but in order to explain the issues or debate the issues you have to try and explain the real world issues that are at stake.

Because people are making other statements impugning the reasons for this is a debate.

No, don't say fuck us, just come up with some reasonable arguments instead of ranting. You've done that bit already.

I think transgender and transexual are two quite different goals.
I think there are many trans folk that feel they have to do the physical transitions that they can do, in order to become 'happy' or 'true' or perhaps even 'real.' — universeness

Transgender is the umbrella term that includes transsexuals, so not all transgenders support the aims of transsexuals, such as advocating for the idea that one can be born into the wrong body, defined purely biologically outside of all social contexts. I agree entirely that the surgery can lead to greater happiness, regardless of whether one believes in a biologistic or social explanation transgender, or some combination of the two. I think Judith Butler has a similar view.

No, don't say fuck us, just come up with some reasonable arguments instead of ranting. You've done that bit already. — Baden

I guess. It's just that after you've been assured you're about to be banned, you might be more inclined to say fuck you.

Except that didn't happen.

Except that didn't happen. — Baden

Yea, fdrake said that.

That was a warning not an assurance it was about to happen. The warning if heeded assures it won't happen. But leaving that aside, your passive aggressive "contributions" aren't helpful or welcome.

That was a warning not an assurance it was about to happen. The warning if heeded assures it won't happen. But leaving that aside, your passive aggressive "contributions" aren't helpful or welcome. — Baden

OK. Although it wasn't at all passive aggressive. It was all entirely genuine.

Transgender is the umbrella term that includes transsexuals — Joshs

That doesn't make sense to me, but I don't really know the accepted terminology or its preferred hierarchical order. 'Transitional' or 'trans' would seem the most appropriate umbrella term to me as the group as a whole is often referred to as 'trans people.'

I agree entirely that the surgery can lead to greater happiness, regardless of whether one believes in a biologistic or social explanation transgender, or some combination of the two. — Joshs

I think that 'general support' is what will matter most to a person going down the physical surgery route.