• NOS4A2
    9.2k
    We are content enough convincing ourselves that representative government, mixed constitutions, and other Roman holdovers suffice to mimic democracy, at least in name. But it is difficult to say that a democracy has ever been realized in any scale larger than a tiny organization.

    That’s OK because we are confident that governments are “potentially democratic”. Plato and Aristotle promised us they can take this form. But the unassuming and unassured phrase “potentially democratic” comes with it the corollary that government is potentially not democratic. Potentially we’ve been waiting thousands of years for self-government and potentially we’ll have to wait a thousand more. Thus whatever evils arise from such systems must be excused just in case they might one day be good.

    Early in the 20th century, the sociologist Robert Michels warned his fellow travellers about the perils of political organization, devising in his famous book Political Parties the theory he called The Iron Law of Oligarchy. The conservative and absolutist appeal to aristocracy was well known and out in the open. However, he noticed in the socialist and democrat parties the tendency and phenomena of oligarchy as well. “The question therefore arises how we are to explain the development in such parties of the very tendencies against which they have declared war.”

    Michels set out to answer the question. With the bonus of hindsight it is safe to say his theory predicted the tendency of every political organization in the 20th century until now, namely, that “the mass will never rule except in abstracto”. Socialist, fascist, communist, democratic, liberal, conservative—even anarchist!—and whether government, party, corporation, or trade union, the very structure of their organizations forbids democracy in favor of oligarchy.

    His arguments are myriad, and one will find himself better off reading the entire book, but I’ve quoted and/or summarized a few:

    • “The most formidable argument against the sovereignty of the masses is, however, derived from the mechanical and technical impossibility of its realization.”

      

As organizations grow the ability for members to participate equally becomes increasingly difficult. Organization is faced with an immediate logistics problem. Where to organize? Where to find the time? How to manage the deliberations between all members, everyone equal? To Michels, “it is impossible to carry on the affairs of this gigantic body without a system of representation”. Delegation occurs.


    • “Popular sovereignty has recently been subjected to a profound criticism by a group of Italian writers conservative in their tendency. Gaetano Mosca speaks of “the falsity of the parliamentary legend.” He says that the idea of popular representation as a free and spontaneous transference of the sovereignty of the electors (collectivity) to a certain number of elected persons (minority) is based upon the absurd premise that the minority can be bound to the collective will by unbreakable bonds. In actual fact, directly after the election is finished, the power of the mass of electors over the delegate comes to an end. The deputy regards himself as authorized arbiter of the situation, and really is such.”


    • “Under representative government the difference between democracy and monarchy, which are both rooted in the representative system, is altogether insignificant — a difference not in substance but in form. The sovereign people elects, in place of a king, a number of kinglets. Not possessing sufficient freedom and independence to direct the life of the state, it tamely allows itself to be despoiled of its fundamental right. The one right which the people reserves is the “ridiculous privilege” of choosing from time to time a new set of masters. To this criticism of the representative system may be appended the remark of Proudhon, to the effect that the representatives of the people have no sooner been raised to power than they set to work to consolidate and reinforce their influence. They continue unceasingly to surround their positions by new lines of defense, until they have succeeded in emancipating themselves completely from popular control. All power thus proceeds in a natural cycle: issuing from the people, it ends by raising itself above the people”.


    • “It was a tenet of the old aristocracy that to disobey the orders of the monarch was to sin against God. In modern democracy it is held that no one may disobey the orders of the oligarchs, for in so doing the people sin against themselves, defying their own will spontaneously transferred by them to their representatives, and thus infringing democratic principle. In democracies, the leaders base their right to command upon the democratic omnipotence of the masses. Every employee of the party owes his post to his comrades, and is entirely dependent upon their good will. We may thus say that in a democracy each individual himself issues, though indirectly, the orders which come to him from above”.


    • As the organization grows, so too does its complexity. The effective administration of the organization requires specialized knowledge and training among the representatives, none of which other members of the organization receive. Soon our representatives, bookkeepers, secretaries, ballot-counters, bureaucrats, are standing in the place of the praetorian guards. This leads to a hierarchy, and all the wonderful social results of hierarchy. Michals says, “Just as the patient obeys the doctor, because the doctor knows better than the patient, having made a special study of the human body in health and disease, so must the political patient submit to the guidance of his party leaders, who possess a political competence impossible of attainment by the rank and file.”


    • Administrative positions usually become positions of prestige and employment. The job-holders tend to do what’s best for the administration, their meal ticket, and not for the organization and all its members.

    At any rate, if we hold up the theory of Potential Democracy to the Iron Law of Oligarchy, one appears weightier than the other. After a thoroughgoing analysis, Michels concludes:

    “The sociological phenomena whose general characteristics have been discussed in
    this chapter and in preceding ones offer numerous vulnerable points to the scientific
    opponents of democracy. These phenomena would seem to prove beyond dispute that society cannot exist without a “dominant” or “political” class, and that the ruling class, while its elements are subject to a frequent partial renewal, nevertheless constitutes the only factor of sufficiently durable efficacy in the history of human development. According to this view, the government, or, if the phrase be preferred, the state, cannot be anything other than the organization of a minority. It is the aim of this minority to impose upon the rest of society a “legal order,” which is the outcome of the exigencies of dominion and of the exploitation of the mass of helots effected by the ruling minority, and can never be truly representative of the majority. The majority is thus permanently incapable of self government. Even when the discontent of the masses culminates in a successful attempt to deprive the bourgeoisie of power, this is after all, so Mosca contends, effected only in appearance; always and necessarily there springs from the masses a new organized minority which raises itself to the rank of a governing class. Thus the majority of human beings, in a condition of eternal tutelage, are predestined by tragic necessity to submit to the dominion of a small minority, and must be content to constitute the pedestal of an oligarchy.”

    So it is and so it has been, as far as I can tell. What is our opinion on the matter?

    Robert Michels, Political Parties: A Sociological Study of the Oligarchial Tendencies of Modern Democracy Link to PDF
  • ssu
    8.5k
    If Athens stands out as one model for democracy, even with the minority (the few free men) participating in the democractic rule of the city-state with slavery, we shouldn't forget how awful choices that democracy did. Like deciding to go on a warpath to colonize parts of the Italian Peninsula that ended so badly that it took a long time for Athens to get the news that their army had been totally destroyed. Or then we have the fate of one philosopher to remember. Hence nothing is ever perfect. The best functioning state will have a plethora of voices smartly showing how bad and inept the system is.

    Democracy is basically just a safety valve in my view, it shouldn't be glorified too much, even if it is better than other systems when the population of the state reaches millions of people. And if there are even safety valves on the representatives of the voting citizenship, it's even better (as in a Republic).

    Yet what you said above, one thing sounded a bit wrong to me:

    Socialist, fascist, communist, democratic, liberal, conservative—even anarchist!—and whether government, party, corporation, or trade union, the very structure of their organizations forbids democracy in favor of oligarchy.NOS4A2
    I'm not so sure that they all favor oligarchy, they just cannot avoid that somebody actually has to make the day-to-day decisions. The people can firmly believe that their system will work (perhaps in the future with a new breed of people) and won't be an oligarchy. Never underestimate the denial people can live in.

    A system that regards itself as fighting a revolution and has this mentality of a struggle makes those that are against it (or even just viewed as possibly being against it) enemies of it. Thus consensus seeking and voting that one has in an democracy are obstacles and out of the question for totalitarian movements. All that consensus and voting is actually for them the root of all evil. This totalitarianism leads to dictatorship: a system lead in the end by one. And those around the dictator are a small clique, totally dependent on the dictator accepting them as not being potential rivals, but 100% obedient lackeys and yes-men. People who compete in being the most dedicated yes-man don't actually represent an oligarchy as we usually know it.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    Another inept Trumpian apologetic. Michels supported Mussolini, you support Trump. Same difference. One fascist autocrat or another. Rather than the rule of a few, the rule of one.

    Plato's degeneration of democracy into tyranny is remarkably prescient, as many pointed out when Trump rose to power.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Good thinking.

    Just to be clear, I didn’t mean they favor oligarchy, but that their organization necessarily tends in that direction, no matter what type of organization they prefer.

    It also seems to me that the Republican style of representational government was designed, as it was in the founding fathers of the United States, to forbid the excesses of democracy. Given that many governments since then have styled their governments in the Republican fashion—Union of Soviet Republics, People’s Republic of China, Italian Social Republic—it was almost inevitable that there would be no democracy.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Michels was an ardent socialist and believed Fascism would deliver democracy.
  • Fooloso4
    6k


    How do you reconcile socialism and fascism?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    I don’t, save for its collectivism. Michels did, though. He was in the milieu.
  • frank
    15.7k
    “It was a tenet of the old aristocracy that to disobey the orders of the monarch was to sin against God. In modern democracy it is held that no one may disobey the orders of the oligarchs, for in so doing the people sin against themselves, defying their own will spontaneously transferred by them to their representatives, and thus infringing democratic principle.NOS4A2

    True. The government took the place of the aristocracy. To the extent that leftists want the government to ensure (enforce) social welfare, they're almost indistinguishable from peasants appealing to the boyar or whatever. You really ought to read the recent posts of @Count Timothy von Icarus He lays out pretty well the advantages of democratic societies (if only democratic in a limited sense) in terms of innovation. He's exactly right.

    For better or worse, we can't voluntarily return to the Bronze Age, which is what you'd have to do to escape modern social structures. Anyway, that's a static kind of life where nothing changes for millennia. But hey, the problem of global warming would be solved.
  • Fooloso4
    6k


    The fact is, he supported Mussolini. If he thought that Mussolini and/or fascism could lead to democracy he was wrong.

    Are you suggesting that Trump's autocratic demography delivers democracy?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Exactly right. Democracy is only achievable outside of representational government. And I do not think we need to go backwards in order to remove the shackles of another’s rule. In the meantime I guess we can pretend it is democracy, protect our “democratic institutions”, and go on as if we’re not serfs for the time being.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    The fact is, he supported Mussolini. If he thought that Mussolini and/or fascism could lead to democracy he was wrong.

    Are you suggesting that Trump's autocratic demography delivers democracy?

    Many people did. Clearly he was wrong.

    I’m suggesting that democracy is impossible where certain organizational structures are concerned, for instance representative government.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Exactly right. Democracy is only achievable outside of representational government. And I do not think we need to go backwards in order to remove the shackles of another’s rule. In the meantime I guess we can pretend it is democracy, protect our “democratic institutions”, and go on as if we’re not serfs for the time being.NOS4A2

    Or you can be realistic about the times you live in and recognize that your time on this little rock is short. How do you want to spend it? And do it. :up:
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    I’m suggesting that democracy is impossible where certain organizational structures are concerned, for instance representative government.NOS4A2

    And what is the alternative?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    I think that is the key, in the end. Rather than wasting time devising a collectivist system that ought to deliver the rule of the people (an absurdity, as Michels shows), which in practice is oligarchy, the people just need to go rule themselves.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    the people just need to go rule themselves.NOS4A2

    And how does that work?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Democracy is always the alternative. It’s just that we cannot reach it through collectivist calculations and means.
  • frank
    15.7k
    I think that is the key, in the end. Rather than wasting time devising a collectivist system that ought to deliver the rule of the people (an absurdity, as Michels shows), which in practice is oligarchy, the people just need to go rule themselves.NOS4A2

    Free your mind. The rest will follow.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Not really the topic for En Vogue references, but I’m a big fan.
  • frank
    15.7k
    Not really the topic for En Vogue references, but I’m a big fan.NOS4A2

    :joke:
  • Moliere
    4.6k
    So it is and so it has been, as far as I can tell. What is our opinion on the matter?NOS4A2

    If Michels is right about the situation he's certainly wrong about the conclusion: "Thus the majority of human beings, in a condition of eternal tutelage, are predestined by tragic necessity to submit to the dominion of a small minority, and must be content to constitute the pedestal of an oligarchy."

    Eternal tutelage and predistination and necessity -- these are the words of the masters. It's repeated so that the people who are at the bottom of the pedestal don't try to get to the top of the pedestal, or bring the pedestal down.

    But the majority doesn't need to be content with this position, and have certainly toppled a few pedestals before.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    I agree with you there. But I think that's his point. I'm sure he is noting how this is giving ideological ammunition to the conservatives. After all, this whole work is a warning to his own party. It's was my fault due to misquote, by leaving out the preceding sentance:

    "The sociological phenomena whose general characteristics have been discussed in this chapter and in preceding ones offer numerous vulnerable points to the scientific opponents of democracy."

    I'll add it to the OP.
  • frank
    15.7k

    Another thing aristocracy has in common with liberal democracy is that both find that depriving the common people so they're on the verge of dying from starvation helps get those little worker bees moving.

    If you let them be satisfied, they'll just sit there eating pumpkins. Get rid of the pumpkins and take all their stuff away. They'll work like maniacs.
  • Fooloso4
    6k


    How then can we reach it?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Who knows? If organization tends to oligarchy, disorganize. That’s probably a good start.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    Who knows?NOS4A2

    You don't know what is to be done but think something should be done, even though you don't know that what should be done will make things better rather than worse. This is just the kind of thinking demagogues rely on.
  • Moliere
    4.6k
    Heh. See, that's exactly what someone who is organized would want people who are disorganized to do :D That's what I mean. It reads like fatalism, which is the sort of position advocated by those who like hierarchies. If there is an iron law of oligarchy, after all, then the scientific opponents of democracy -- though I wish to note here that I don't think this is a group -- must establish their own oligarchy if they want to be politically active, while the majority of people who are not will not be a part of that oligarchy. At least that's what seems to make sense from what's been said in the thread (obviously I haven't read the book, I'm just commenting along).

    The problem with disorganizing is that organizations are more powerful than the disorganized. All it takes is for a group to decide that the benefits of organization outweigh the downsides, in their particular organization, and they'll naturally be more powerful -- and thereby will have political import regardless of ideology.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    I do appreciate all the attention but I'm far more interested in your opinion on the topic. Can you think of a way around the Iron Law of Oligarchy? Or would you admit, like the conservatives do, that the very structure of your organization requires a hierarchy of betters and lessers, elites and the masses, masters and slaves?
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    True enough. But they wouldn’t have coercive political power. And I think cooperation could beat out organization any day. I’m not sure if this is true or not but I do believe a voluntary army could stick it to a slave army.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    Can you think of a way around the Iron Law of Oligarchy?NOS4A2

    If by oligarchy you simply mean rule by a few then by definition the rulers of a democratic republic are a few, although the few are actually many, but still a small percentage of the population.

    In the absence of a better alternative I don't think there is a way around.

    Or would you admit, like the conservatives do, that the very structure of your organization requires a hierarchy of betters and lessers, elites and the masses, masters and slaves?NOS4A2

    There is a difference between "betters and lessers". "Elites" is a term that is stretched in order to argue for or against something. Your man Trump is an elite, if by that term you mean rich and powerful, but there are many conservatives who object to him because he is not an elite in the sense of being capable of wise and beneficial leadership. "Masters and slaves" is even more loaded.
  • NOS4A2
    9.2k


    Then the very structure of your organization and path to democracy betrays your goals. Your organization requires hierarchy, the rule of the few, in the conservative tradition. Now it is just a matter of who is more honest about it.
  • Fooloso4
    6k
    Now it is just a matter of who is more honest about it.NOS4A2

    Who is more honest about what? Many conservatives today want to or claim they want to dismantle the administrative state. The administrative state is comprised of a few in terms of the overall population but it is not comprised of only a few, it is quite large.
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