He'll be OK, just needs to find his tribe, like I had to. — bert1

Very happy to hear you're on top of the situation! A whole lot of parents are bewildered.

When I expressed my personality I told her I was submissive, that her right-wing views were disgusting, that she was ignorant and unwilling to learn, and that sometimes I hated her, she dumped me. — bert1

Astonishing! You'd think the cooking would have clinched it!

t used to be a taboo to be an incel. In public, you would never have confessed your feelings of hatred and loathing at your lack of obtaining women. — Philosophim

Somehow, hatred and loathing don't sound all that enticing in a prospective date.

maybe not all nations have officially approved it as a new term. Some nations have though. — Christoffer

Hey-this is America -- we have no national institute approving or disallowing new words. Here, it's the province of Free Enterprise -- most likely, some sub-operation of Google.

BTW, even corporate auto-correct systems do not start (or end) with an official list. Autocorrect is built by "scraping" the key-strokes of billions of people who are typing away. I type "incel"; autocorrect changes it to "Intel" or "inches" (in this local, present tense situation). I back up and change "Intel" or "inches" back to "incel". The systems that "scrape off information" from our activities on line sees how I dealt with its suggestion. After a few more million times that this happens, it will start accepting "incel" as an acceptable word.

The fact that "incel" is still an unacceptable word to autocorrect suggests to me that it actually isn't being used, detected, and corrected all that much.

"Scraping" data from our content is de regueur, even though it marks "regueur" as misspelled and wants to replace it with "regular".

Somehow, hatred and loathing don't sound all that enticing in a prospective date. — Vera Mont

Thanks, Vera; that's valuable intel for everyone in the dating scene. Romance will blossom.

Of course, hating and loathing the same thing can be quite attractive. I require prospects to hate and loathe Republicans.

t used to be a taboo to be an incel. In public, you would never have confessed your feelings of hatred and loathing at your lack of obtaining women.
— Philosophim

Somehow, hatred and loathing don't sound all that enticing in a prospective date. — Vera Mont

No, they generally don't. Incels have stopped trying. They've given into their worst impulses of bitterness and hatred.

Incels have stopped trying. They've given into their worst impulses of bitterness and hatred. — Philosophim

I'm wondering why. Have they sublimated their sex-drive into violent fantasy? Most of them will - I assume - never act on these impulses to "punish" women for their own inadequacy, so they'll just languish for years and die bitter old men. Why? For the brotherhood? I'm sure most of them could do a whole lot better than they're doing, be happier than they are. Why do they choose to be miserable?

Two attractive parents can birth and raise unattractive offspring and two unattractive parents can birth and raise beautiful offspring depending on gene recombination/complimetarity if the pairing in any given individual. — Benj96

I remember reading years ago that statistical studies have shown that two highly intelligent parents tend to have less intelligent offspring, too very tall parents tend to have shorter offspring and two very beautiful parents tend to have less beautiful offspring. The same goes in the cases of low intelligence, short and ugly parents; in reverse of course. If this were not so, humanity would have long since separated into two races: very tall, beautiful geniuses and very short ugly morons.

Why do they choose to be miserable? — Vera Mont

Because they're short, ugly morons...
:wink:

Deleted

Because they're short, ugly morons — Janus

Not good enough! I've met short ugly morons in happy marriages - and not always with short ugly morons.

Not good enough! I've met short ugly morons in happy marriages - and not always with short ugly morons.
— Vera Mont

Right, but that short ugly morons may have a greater tendency to become miserable incels than tall, handsome/ beautiful geniuses do, does not entail that all short ugly morons will be miserable incels, or that all tall, handsome/ beautiful geniuses will not be miserable incels.

That said, being an involuntary celibate, miserable or otherwise, does not equate to identifying as an incel; the latter would seem to entail a very special blend of viciousness and stupidity.

I'm wondering why. Have they sublimated their sex-drive into violent fantasy? Most of them will - I assume - never act on these impulses to "punish" women for their own inadequacy, so they'll just languish for years and die bitter old men. — Vera Mont

They've lost all hope. Since in their mind its impossible for them to succeed, they double down on bitterness and anger, then send it against the world. Lets say someone told you to lift 2 tons. You might see others effortlessly doing it, but everytime you get to that bar you fail in front of a large group of people. You feel them jeering at you behind your back. Women despise you. Society despises you. So why not despise them? Make them hurt.

Not justifying it, just trying to see it through their eyes.

That said, being an involuntary celibate, miserable or otherwise, does not equate to identifying as an incel; the latter would seem to entail a very special blend of viciousness and stupidity. — Janus

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe not so much the viciousness and stupidity - okay, I called it odious and loud or something - but attitude. There seems to be a choice involved, just as taking on the label is a choice - not every unattractive man or woman is beyond the possibility of being loved by someone; not every unloved person turns bitterly hateful - that has to be motivated. I think the culture of rage and hate is questing for fresh fields to conquer.

You are being very kind and understanding to those short, ugly, vicious morons.

But seriously, I agree; much of the viciousness and stupidity is culturally fomented and ideologically, economically and politically motivated.

Benj's guide to developing irresistible CHARISMA in 21 days!


Try these techniques to build DYNAMITE CHARISMA! — BC

Haha :) Alright I get it. Seems a bit personal. Not like I'm the only person that agrees that a lot of traits are malleable/workable.

Why do they choose to be miserable? — Vera Mont

The social stigmatization, which is on full display in this thread, is probably a large part of the reason.

The term 'cycle of abuse' comes to mind.

This sensitive-new-age-guy thing you've got going on is creepy — T Clark

Bit harsh but you're entitled to your opinion I guess.

They recognize how disrespectful the male feminist bullshit really is. Grownup women want to hang around with grownup men. — T Clark

Male feminism is bullshit? If that's the case it's just divisive and pigeon holing all men inti a category of inherently non-feminist in values. Or mysognistic by virtue of being a man. Doesn't seem fair or rational.

Ive had very different experiences of what women like or don't like. Perhaps you should ask them for their opinion? Just you know... A thought.

The world is changing. You can call new age more sensitive men naive, immature or whatever. I call it acknowledgement that the ways of old were cruel. What worked then doesn't now. And shouldn't now

Contemporary society is a thoroughly alienating experience for many people -- not everyone, but a good share. Social media, dating apps, etc. bring the chilly competitiveness of business to the more intimate business of finding friends and sexual partners. It's great for the winners, not so hot for the losers.

The images of men and women (in many contexts) that the businesses of social media and advertising project are often very distorted, and the projections are pervasive. From media that is designed to promote consumption (of goods, services, and other people) it's no wonder that some people feel like they are the left-overs from a clearance sale. — BC

The world is alienating for many people, I agree with this, but then it doesn't seems to be acceptable to point this out if we are talking about incels. Anyway, I pretty much said what I wanted to say about this, I don't want to be an apologist for their behaviours either.

No, it came out of a questioning of old norms. Even Stuart Mill questioned why women didn't have equal rights and I don't think the suffragette movement came out of Christianity, most at the time wouldn't consider them acting in a "Christian manner" and they wouldn't have had to if the church or other religious institutions had pushed for such ideals. And you didn't understand what I wrote about traditions, I said that the secularization of power made traditions no longer follow state praxis and instead became traditions in of themselves. Over the course of over a hundred years, since the suffragettes succeeded in getting women voting rights, these traditions have been slowly dismantled over generations since it is easier to question traditions when they only exist as cultural behaviors. I don't think you can give credit to Christian values for this since Christian values have been precisely what's been working against this progression since secularization first began. — Christoffer

I do think it came out of Christian values. Even the notion of the 'secular' only really makes sense in a Christian context (and etymological came out of that context), which is why all of these emancipatory rights came out of the western tradition, and not universally everywhere. If you want to dig deeper into this, you might want to read some of Tom Hollands stuff on how Christianity shaped our world :

https://www.amazon.nl/Dominion-Christian-Revolution-Remade-World/dp/0465093507

https://www.gethistory.co.uk/historical-period/general-history/why-the-secular-cant-exist-without-christianity

With Holland, Nietzsche pointed out even earlier how weird the Christian inversion of values really was in a world historical context. The dominant values across the world generally were those of the ruling class. To put is a bit to simple perhaps, good was what was powerful/victorious, and bad was what was weak, the victims... For the Romans the cross was a symbol of humiliation and contempt, the lowest of the low, and specifically in Christianity it became the basis of the whole western value system. Without this inversion of values, none of the emancipatory movements we saw in the west make sense.

And in line with what I've written. The industrial revolution emerged out of secular ideas, since "industry" before that was deeply connected to the power structure of a nation. The modern type of capitalism that raised up from the ashes of monarchy and religious institutions exponentially sped up progression and was able to further finance intellectual institutions outside of elite corridors. What happened was that more people had the ability to question the status quo and it started to influence women to do so themselves which led to things like the suffragettes movement. — Christoffer

First, as I alluded to above the secular came out of Christianity. Christianity with its valuation of the Truth, and Protestantism with its turn to individualism, rather than being in opposition with, also helped pave the way for the scientific revolution. I don't see these things in opposition to eachother, but rather as a continuation.

Second, the industrial revolution had a lot of causes. Cultural climate no doubt was one of them, which was I think influenced by Chirstianity, but more important were other material conditions like the fact that Britain had a lot of readily available coal, had a lot of surplus workers because of the agricultural revolution, and also had a lot of excess wealth because of colonial trade.

I'm not saying these emancipatory activist forces played no role whatsoever, I'm just saying that one shouldn't overestimate their role either. If we are to believe the likes of Nietzsche and Holland, Christianity had in it own valuations the seeds for its own demise, structurally giving rise to revolutions that question the existing power structures on emancipatory grounds (reformation, enlightment, French revolution, socialism/communism, woke-ism? etc etc..).

This sensitive-new-age-guy thing you've got going on is creepy. The strong, stubborn, competent women I know think it's creepy too. — T Clark

:up: :up:

Young people everywhere are struggling with developing intimate relationships (and relationships in general), and that is a serious problem.

I think increasing social atomization is at the root of this, basically forcing young people into an artificial dating scene that for obvious reasons doesn't appeal to nor suit many of them.

The way this topic is treated in regards to young men is especially worrying, and some of the replies to this thread are an indication of that. Trying to force people who are clearly suffering into silence through derision and shame is exactly what creates resentment and pushes people over the edge to commit terrible deeds. — Tzeentch

Yes, I think it's important to try to understand it as a new phenomenon. So I say let's have more sociology and less moralizing. One can do this at the same time as being intolerant of the intolerant, in the words of @180 Proof.

A good analogy is Islamic radicalism (in fact it's more than analogy, because I think they share some underlying causes). There are academics, organizations, and policies specifically aimed at working out why some young Muslim men are attracted to violent fundamentalism, and working out how communities can help them avoid it. It's no use saying oh, that's just regressive dogma. It might be that, but it's more than that.

The incels represent a resistance to the liberation of women, but this is its self-image, its ideology, a manifestation of an underlying problem--and, I would say, a self-consciously countercultural reaching back to a patriarchal worldview that they have not in fact developed naturally from their communities (which again parallels Islamic radicalism). There are specific reasons why in the current situation, the liberation of women might be seen as a problem to these young men. If this is not accepted, and we are merely dismissive, then we end up just blaming, say, the innately sexist nature of men. That is, we lapse into moralism.

And what said. :clap:

Contemporary society is a thoroughly alienating experience for many people -- not everyone, but a good share. Social media, dating apps, etc. bring the chilly competitiveness of business to the more intimate business of finding friends and sexual partners. It's great for the winners, not so hot for the losers. — BC

Yes. I think we're used to thinking of capitalism as an old system that arrived fully formed or transformed society in a short while, but in fact, the commodification of life has actually been quite a gradual process, and the associated social fragmentation and atomization is still happening. I realize it's facile to answer the problem of incels by saying "it's capitalism!" but I don't have anything else. has put some insightful flesh on that bone.

I don't want to be an apologist for their behaviours either. — ChatteringMonkey

Problematic behavior almost always stems from suffering, and in the case of incels that's pretty clear. Recognizing that doesn't make you an apologist.

The incels represent a resistance to the liberation of women, but this is its self-image, its ideology, a manifestation of an underlying problem--and, I would say, a self-consciously countercultural reaching back to a patriarchal worldview that they have not in fact developed naturally from their communities. — Jamal

I would interpret it differently.

Incels' resentment towards women probably has little to do with any real social theory, and more to do with something as simple as continuous rejection, or the perception of such. "You hurt me, I hurt you."

I say perception, because probably a great deal of these 'incels' aren't quite as undesirable as they believe to be. As many have pointed out, people of all shapes and sizes find partners and get married, and that has always been the case. So the question is where they get these notions of worthlessness and undesirableness.

Perhaps it's communicated implicitly through popular culture, which floods the young with artificial imagery of what success looks like. Perhaps it's through lack of a father figure or male role models. Maybe it's a combination of both.

Yeah I think that's compatible with my view.

I have personal experience of it. In my youth I was unsuccessful with women, and I noticed I was feeling a rising resentment about it. I knew this was wrong so I didn't let it develop too far. At the time I did not have many friends, let alone female friends. All of the toxic feelings disappeared once my sex life became as astonishingly rich and exciting as it remains today.

That was 30 years ago. What is different now? Would I have become a misogynist if I had been exposed to the "manosphere"? I don't think so, actually. The answer to "why not?" might be more than just "because I'm a nice guy". That is, it might be to do with the positive social constraints or influences that prevented it, which might not be in effect as much today.

What is different now? — Jamal

What is different is that you can state that you are an incel far more easily. No wonder that "incels" became a thing in the net. All those hours in front of a screen. Besides, being unsuccessful with women wasn't something accepted in the old male culture. Or to be more precise: you simply didn't talk about these things or refer to some group as you can find now, hence it wasn't just "male" culture.

Now you have discussion groups. Like if you like philosophy. :razz:

At the time I did not have many friends, let alone female friends. — Jamal

Well, being lonely is the issue. Usually it isn't so that a man with a lot of male friends and the ability to get friends then suddenly would have a problem with women. But now we have this habit of compartmentalization. Which in my view, has become ridiculous.

If your shy and lonely and simply have accepted your state, suddenly you are deemed to be an incel. And then the woke idiots go after these incles " misogyny, misanthropy" and make paint these guys as part of a hate group and the usual stuff.

Perhaps it's communicated implicitly through popular culture, which floods the young with artificial imagery of what success looks like. — Tzeentch

More like social media that does it.

What I don't understand is that self perceived "incels" actively seek out incel platforms to voice their frustrations and lack of self worth to other people who are equally unhappy.

But instead of these being constructive platforms, where the members support and encourage each other, they're like a masochistic group of men tearing eachothers self esteem down to bits and propagating harmful beliefs about themselves and one another.

Why would anyone want to actively seek a place known for being highly critical and debasing?

Like I've heard of them posting pics of themselves just so other incels can point out everything wrong with them. Further reinforcing their state of feeling undesired. It's like virtual self flagellation.

I have personal experience of it. In my youth I was unsuccessful with women, and I noticed I was feeling a rising resentment about it. I knew this was wrong so I didn't let it develop too far. At the time I did not have many friends, let alone female friends. All of the toxic feelings disappeared once my sex life became as astonishingly rich and exciting as it remains today. — Jamal

Same. I'm going through a period like myself actually. Well, I have quite a lot of friends but no romance going on. I get these errant thoughts of resentment. They've all got this character where I take the "isolation/fragmentation of modern life" phenomenon, turn it into a personal failing, then externalise that judged personal failing onto an abstract representation of my "object of desire" - a largely "arbitrary" woman. Ressentiment through and through. Though socially inculcated.

It doesn’t hurt that you have a rich set of radically progressive beliefs to keep you away from the dark side. When I was going through it I had already been calling myself a communist for a couple of years, so I wonder if this helped prevent my descent into misogyny. I don’t think that was the main thing though.

At the time I felt a kind of disgusted resentment at the thought—which I couldn’t stop thinking—that there were women at that very moment having sex with other men. And at the same time I knew this was stupid. But as a socially anxious person I didn’t know what to do about it, and it was only by accident that things improved.

Anyway, it’s probably better to target one’s ressentiment at the abstract woman than actual women. I don’t know if the former leads to the latter in a smooth progression or if something just breaks at some point based on individual psychology or circumstances.

To be completely honest, I went through it again around 2016-2017. I went a bit mad with resentment and, the flipside, an unhealthy infatuation (which never led me to do anything abusive or creepy, I should add. Well, maybe mildly creepy.). Come to think of it, over the course of my life I seem to have oscillated between periods of quiet incel resentment that I was saved from at the last minute by the women in my life.

The social stigmatization, which is on full display in this thread, is probably a large part of the reason.

The term 'cycle of abuse' comes to mind. — Tzeentch

Show me who first abused single men for being single, or unattractive men for being unattractive. I can recall, not that long ago, unattractive women referred to as dog, battle-ax, hag, etc. and the perennial sex-starved spinster jokes, nun jokes, rape jokes. Women complained about that, but didn't run vans over strangers on a sidewalk.

How would anyone even know about your isolation or history of failure in romance in order to stigmatize you? Why would anyone notice or care? I'm walking in the mall or sitting at a concert, I don't look around and say : There, that guy looks like he hasn't been paid in two years, let's all make fun of him...
Incels started their own cult of exclusion, resentment and violence.

It wasn't the woman you desire and can't have that made you inadequate; it's not her job to repair your ego. Abusers usually do this - and I have some experience. They blame someone else for what they do, and want to do, that they know is wrong. "Don't make me hit you again." is the bad father's mantra.
You are responsible for yourself.

I wonder how many incels are also virgins. I don't think it's healthy for people to stay virgins for too long into their adolesence (unless they really want to). Sex will start to take a mythical place in one's mind, that in my experience it really doesn't deserve. Love does, but sex doesn't.

Maybe incels should muster the courage to visit a prostitute at some point. :grin:


I was referring to the social stigmatization. The rejection these men experience probably can't be called abuse in most cases, but their suffering is real. Unresolved suffering may lead to abuse, and an environment which is unable to recognize the dynamic will perpetuate and worsen that cycle.

I was referring to the social stigmatization. — Tzeentch

Yes, and I'm asking who did that to whom, and on what basis. I was there when single women were a routine butt social contempt and ridicule; I missed where and when men became such a class of victims.

I mean, take a look at the posts in this thread. The stigmatization should be obvious.

The stigmatization should be obvious. — Tzeentch

It isn't. The label is self-assumed, not imposed. The suffering is real, as I have acknowledged more than once. Lots of people suffer for lots of reasons - illness, disfigurement, disability, phobias, depression, old age, obesity - but they don't all make a cult of it, or abuse and punish other people for it. The blame is misplaced, and as long as someone hangs on their self-identified victimhood, they won't be able to overcome it.