How many instances of violence by incels are there? How often does bitching and carping about their sad condition turn into assault and battery (or fatal van driving)?

How many instances of violence by incels are there? How often does bitching and carping about their sad condition turn into assault and battery (or fatal van driving)? — BC

Fifty, documented. Nobody knows how many more are similarly motivated. More expected, because the rhetoric is increasingly vicious.

Almost 1,000 references to dehumanising misogyny or violent action are recorded each day in the “incelosphere” as the toxicity of male supremacist content continues to intensify.https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/30/global-incel-culture-terrorism-misogyny-violent-action-forums

And they're not, by any stretch, all short, ugly, socially awkward men suffering from chronic rejection. We're not just picking on some poor lonely boys here.

We're not just picking on some poor lonely boys here. — Vera Mont

Then I guess the definition "a person (usually a man) who regards himself or herself as being involuntarily celibate" isn't so important as there obviously are a lot more those than who are part of an online-community hate group and are willing to use violence.

Just like people who are environmentalists and those willing to use violence to promote their view of environmentalism, the so-called eco-terrorists, aren't pooled together. Or are only by some fringe right-wing people.

Then I guess the definition "a person (usually a man) who regards himself or herself as being involuntarily celibate" isn't so important — ssu

What does this mean? The thread was about this specific internet culture of promoting misogyny. There is no comparison to environmentalists, and it's not about single men who are unhappy; they're no more or less important than any other person who is unhappy about something. The designation - not definition - wasn't forced on anyone.

I understand the behavior fully — Christoffer

Looking back over your posts in this thread, I don't see that all. Everything you've written is couched in the language of ideological feminism. That allows you to judge without thinking.

Do you approve of that behavior? Do you respect them based on that behavior? Again, what is it that you are defending here? — Christoffer

I feel sympathy for men who are socially lost and feel left out, rejected. That's an experience I can easily understand. I've felt it myself. Most of these men live normal, non-violent lives and don't offend your sensitivities. Do you condemn looters and rioters who burn their neighborhoods in respond to their resentments? I'll ask you - Do you approve of their behavior? Do you respect them based on that behavior?

Male feminism is bullshit? If that's the case it's just divisive and pigeon holing all men inti a category of inherently non-feminist in values. Or mysognistic by virtue of being a man. Doesn't seem fair or rational. — Benj96

No, no. I understand the ideology. Any man who doesn't toe the party line is misogynistic just like anyone who doesn't support Israel is anti-semitic, anyone who doesn't support the Black Lives Matter movement is racist, and anyone who doesn't agree with you politically is a fascist.

I feel sympathy for men who are socially lost and feel left out, rejected. That's an experience I can easily understand. I've felt it myself. Most of these men live normal, non-violent lives and don't offend your sensitivities. — T Clark

Do you think I'm talking about lonely men who are non-violent and who act normal? I'm talking about the blatant misogynist and racist incels, the ones who are reported as a growing risk of extremism. I've said it clearly, people are judged on their acts and when they spread their hateful toxicity, then they've lost my respect and should lose the respect of anyone who's normal. I have no problem defending innocent people from these hateful ones. If that's a moral line that seems ambiguous to you, I'd recommend some introspection into what you're actually defending here.

Looking back over your posts in this thread, I don't see that all. Everything you've written is couched in the language of ideological feminism. That allows you to judge without thinking. — T Clark

You've not provided any counter-arguments, only these types of answers so I wonder who's judging without thinking. So far in this thread, I've seen much more defense of misogynist racist people than any kind of objective analysis of why incels have grown in the last couple of years or why they have the risk of extremist movements growing out of it.

And pulling the "stupid feminist" card like this just shows what level this thread is gonna be at, so I'm out, I have no interest in going further when things are on this kind of level. This is bordering on an anti-intellectual level and it fits more on precisely the misogynist forums where men can vent their frustrations through hate against women (and they wonder why women don't want them? :shade: )

I thought this thread on THIS forum would have a little higher level of discourse on the subject.

I thought this thread on THIS forum would have a little higher level of discourse on the subject. — Christoffer

As I noted in my last post, it is standard operating procedure to tag people who disagree with you as misogynist and racist.

You didn't answer my questions about your attitude towards violent looters and rioters.

In fact I even think Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism following it, played an essential role in the formation of enlightenment ideals of equality, giving rise to individual rights and feminism. In other words, It's not the realization that those traditional norms existed without reason that gave rise those progressive ideas, they precisely followed from and are a logical conclusion of christian values (who were an inversion of Roman values, and pagan values, that came before). — ChatteringMonkey

I'm hopeful you're being ironic, but fear you're not. But I don't want to derail this thread. I couldn't help but take note of these remarkable statements, however.

No, no. I understand the ideology. Any man who doesn't toe the party line is misogynistic just like anyone who doesn't support Israel is anti-semitic, anyone who doesn't support the Black Lives Matter movement is racist, and anyone who doesn't agree with you politically is a fascist. — T Clark

Well this is called "essentialism". Reducing ones singular action or demonstration of behaviour to a permanent definition.
Social media does this all the time and it's the basis for cancel culture.

For example: John disagrees with one viewpoint of one member of the black lives matter movement. Ergo, John is a racist. Now, John is not necessarily a racist just because he objected to one person's views - a person that identifys with a group but may not neccesarily exemplify that groups values in entirety.

It's the difference between saying "Sam 'is' an assh*le" and "Sam did an assh*lish thing" or "Sam behaved 'like' an assh*le."
These are not equivalent. One acknowledges that behaviour or acts don't ultimately define a person. The other says a person is defined only by a single act.

What say you of people who are ambivalent to any given movements idealogies. How can one justifiably assign them to either parties/oppositions creed when they don't agree with either entirely.

To come full circle: I am a proponent of a male feminism ideal being a man. But this does not mean I agree with all viewpoints of feminists. That however does not make me a mysoginist. Nor do I agree with all viewpoints of those contrary/in opposition to feminism. But that doesn't make me a radical/extreme feminist. I think both groups have there internal flaws and idiosyncrasies.

To essentialise anyone to a given group, a whole lot of sweeping generalisations are made about them, many of which may not be true. There is fluidity/spectrum within definitions/assigned categories.

I can concede that some male feminism is bullshit. Other male feminism not so much. I like to think my reasons for being one are simple and concrete, despite what assumptions may be made about me for identifying as a proponent of it.

I'm hopeful you're being ironic, but fear you're not. — Ciceronianus

You know what CM is saying and you know they mean it. This is just passive-aggressive baloney.

I can concede that some male feminism is bullshit. Other male feminism not so much. I like to think me reasons for being one are simple and concrete, despite what assumptions may be made about me for identifying as a proponent of it. — Benj96

I'm white. What would you think if I characterized myself as member of the black power movement?

I'm white. What would you think if I characterized myself as member of the black power movement — T Clark

I would say that a "movement" (belief system/ideology) is not equal to your innate ethnicity/ definition or characterisation as a person.

I would say that being white doesn't mean you can't be a proponent of the BLM movement. Any less than being heterosexual prevents one from being an "ally" to the lgbt community or being abled prevents one from campaigning for rights for the disabled.

In essence, you don't need to be "X" to desire rights and equality for "X".

If we had a case where you cannot/have no right to campaign on behalf of a marginalised/descrimminated group if you're not from that group, then it is inherently segregated. Any chance at unification is hopeless. As everyone outside the group is an enemy by virtue of the fact that they don't share those traits. No integration can come of such a notion, only self propagating division.

Friends are friends despite their differences. Enemies are enemies because of their differences

You know what CM is saying and you know they mean it. This is just passive-aggressive baloney. — T Clark

You seem an intrusive, prickly, sanctimonious sort. But I hope you're not.

How many instances of violence by incels are there? — BC

Quite a lot actually. Several mass shootings. If you require references I can cite them.

Now that isn't to say other groups have not committed violent acts based on fundamental principles/beliefs. They range on everything from sex, ethnicity and class to political stance and religion. Not just incel-ship. There are many for sure.

My point would be that taking credence in any intractable definition/characteristic of a person as a basis for violence is always inherently wrong.

It denies the simple fact thay humans are diverse as a species in all areas of society, culture and being. And none of them are more just to impose on others than any other sect/facet of human society.

It is about tolerance and empathy at the end if the day. Without it, we are vicious barbarians, hardly a cohesive society at all. Diversity is the spice of life. And tolerance/understanding is the stability that permits that.

There is no place for extremes (self righteousness) in a group of many unique individuals just looking for a middle ground. You can't see eye to eye from the polar ends of difference, only from the middle - what unites us all. We are human, and deserve to be treated as such.

The thread was about this specific internet culture of promoting misogyny. — Vera Mont

Not if you actually look at the OP, actually. :roll:

Hence the incel movement should, as you take, be more about internet culture.

There is no comparison to environmentalists — Vera Mont

There ought not to be comparison with environmentalists and terrorists either, as I said.

Put shortly, no matter what someones reasons are, violence towards other people shouldn't be tolerated.

I would say that a "movement" (belief system/ideology) is not equal to your innate ethnicity/ definition or characterisation as a person. — Benj96

I didn't say BLM, I said black power. Saying you support equal rights for women is not the same as saying you are a feminist.

You seem an intrusive, prickly, sanctimonious sort. But I hope you're not. — Ciceronianus

Alas, I hate to dash your hopes.

I didn't say BLM, I said black power. Saying you support equal rights for women is not the same as saying you are a feminist. — T Clark

It is feminism if the society is inherently patriarchal/misogynistic to begin with. Which it is. Equal rights in a male-biased system is feminist (supports/endorses conferring more power to women to equalise the status quo).

The feminist status ends when the mysoginistic one does.

Not if you actually look at the OP, actually. — ssu

I did. Here is a more comprehensive look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel
While IncelSupport welcomed men and women and banned misogynistic posts, love-shy.com's userbase was overwhelmingly male. Over the next decade, the membership of love-shy.com and online fringe right-wing communities like 4chan increasingly overlapped.[36] In the 2000s, incel communities became more extremist as they adopted behaviors common on forums like 4chan and Reddit, where extremist posts were encouraged as a way to achieve visibility.[23] According to Bruce Hoffman and colleagues writing in Studies in Conflict & Terrorism, as "edgy" and extremist statements became more prevalent in incel communities, so too did extremist trolling and "shitposting"

If not, then what is it about, really?

It doesn’t hurt that you have a rich set of radically progressive beliefs to keep you away from the dark side. When I was going through it I had already been calling myself a communist for a couple of years, so I wonder if this helped prevent my descent into misogyny. I don’t think that was the main thing though. — Jamal

I dunno. It would be a nice thought.

To be completely honest, I went through it again around 2016-2017. I went a bit mad with resentment and, the flipside, an unhealthy infatuation (which never led me to do anything abusive or creepy, I should add. Well, maybe mildly creepy.). Come to think of it, over the course of my life I seem to have oscillated between periods of quiet incel resentment that I was saved from at the last minute by the women in my life. — Jamal

Makes sense. I think it's so commonplace it's kinda silly to call it "being an incel" or whatever. It's just getting frustrated at being romantically/sexually unfulfilled and alone. You can see the same kinda attitude in a few "pretty privilege" criticising TikToks from women. It looks like: men are shit because they don't pay romantic attention to me... But if they did it would be objectification, fuck men.

Anyway, it’s probably better to target one’s ressentiment at the abstract woman than actual women. I don’t know if the former leads to the latter in a smooth progression or if something just breaks at some point based on individual psychology or circumstances. — Jamal

Also yes. It isn't "most of me" that thinks this. I'm very used to having intrusive thoughts of various flavours. My Inner Incel is just trying to stop me from acknowledging my own loneliness and romantic shame!

I can imagine the former leading to the latter, though. If I were to start seeing women under the light of that abstracted object of desire/resentment, it starts to look a lot like misogyny. Whereas the loneliness which underpins those errant thoughts isn't anything of the sort.

Edit: so I guess you can say I'm wary of pathologising it - getting angry about other emotions and hallucinating problems to solve is what blokes grow up doing. But indulging in misogyny is an obvious no-no. Can't a guy just be frustrated at being alone?

And isn't that more about the internet?

Note how the OP was written:

Involuntary celibate is a self appointed term to describe men that are celibate against their will because they deem themselves not attractive enough to the opposite sex. They believe this is objective, fixed and unchangeable.

Is this an emerging mental condition? What is fuelling the upsurgence in men that self identify as incels?

Do you think that perhaps the way dating apps are designed has some influence? Are we becoming too objectifying as a society? Is the incel "movement" dangerous? To whom and why?

So many questions on this bizarre subject. — Benj96

Thus the issue you refer to would be the incel "movement". Not about the other questions above.

In fact I even think Christianity, Catholicism and Protestantism following it, played an essential role in the formation of enlightenment ideals of equality, giving rise to individual rights and feminism. In other words, It's not the realization that those traditional norms existed without reason that gave rise those progressive ideas, they precisely followed from and are a logical conclusion of christian values (who were an inversion of Roman values, and pagan values, that came before).
— ChatteringMonkey

I'm hopeful you're being ironic, but fear you're not. But I don't want to derail this thread. I couldn't help but take note of these remarkable statements, however. — Ciceronianus

It is passive aggressive baloney... what's the point?

No, not ironic. Impervious to irony, it seems.

But I would think it should still be obvious. I think your comments regarding Christianity (which some would say includes Catholicism and Protestantism) are mistaken, remarkably so, in fact. But I didn't want to derail the thread by addressing them.

I think your comments regarding Christianity (which some would say includes Catholicism and Protestantism) are mistaken, remarkably so, in fact. — Ciceronianus

Well, I guess people don't read what the Bible says about the role of women. And about women in general.

It's still a useful source (the Bible, that is) about Christianity. :smile:

It is feminism if the society is inherently patriarchal/misogynistic to begin with. Which it is. Equal rights in a male-biased system is feminist (supports/endorses conferring more power to women to equalise the status quo). — Benj96

To be consistent with that standard, you'll have to agree it's ok for me to claim to be a member of the black power movement.

Thus the issue you refer to would be the incel "movement". Not about the other questions above. — ssu

It's the movement that created the question. Before the internet, there were married people and single people, happy people and unhappy people, lonely people and people with active social lives, people who were successful in their relations with their preferred category of sex partners and those who were not. In society, there were couples, widows and widowers, divorced people, bachelors and spinsters (of which bachelors were the most frequently considered enviable and old maids, the least). None of these were subcultures or movements.
The whole 'incel' phenomenon started with a website.

But I didn't want to derail the thread by addressing them. — Ciceronianus

This is the semantic equivalent to one of my favorite passive-aggressive southernisms - "Just sayin."

Not if you actually look at the OP, actually — ssu

The OP need not comprehensively describe or define incels, since it’s a pretty well-known subculture notorious for its abusive and sometimes violent misogyny. It’s probably wise to look into it rather than throwing around accusations of wokeness. Even just a quick look at Wikipedia would work:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

It doesn’t follow from the fact that “incel” is a word formed from “involuntary celibate” that when we use “incel” we are merely referring to people who are involuntarily celibate tout court.

None. I look forward to the day that men are properly humbled by the clout of women - their intelligence, their strength and resolve - strong fierce mothers, exceptional wives, admirable daughters. Feminity has always moderated the testosterone fuelled recklessness of man. And it was always undervalued, considered weak for that fact.
— Benj96

This sensitive-new-age-guy thing you've got going on is creepy. The strong, stubborn, competent women I know think it's creepy too.

Understand it, and act accordingly. I believe in hearing people out and applying reasoning to show them the result of their claims/beliefs.
— Benj96

Your clear ignorance about the people you're talking about puts the lie to this.

The most manly of men, in my opinion, are those that willingly submit to the power of the feminine.
— Benj96

Strong women don't want to hang around with men who "willingly submit to the power of the feminine." They recognize how disrespectful the male feminist bullshit really is. Grownup women want to hang around with grownup men. — T Clark

Not your finest comments, TC. Sorry. It comes across as peevish and too personal. @Benj96 starts an interesting thread (and acts as genial host) and gets this. You can do much better… sincerely. :victory: