I remember a flash of Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus, flashed through my mind, saying the line 'a slave does not fear death, death is the only freedom a slave knows about.'
— universeness
You told me the revolt was all about 'love of freedom'! — Vera Mont
Which do you value most, your own company/solitude or the company of others? Do you need both? Could you live without being able to experience one or the other?In a way - but not through or because of their presence. It's really only a few other people: the ones who can invent both a concept of hell and the means of creating some facsimile of it on earth. One of those means is convincing the weak-minded of their own right to lead and decide. — Vera Mont
I agree but for me, it's almost as critical asThat's a difficult question, what with the qualifier tacked to its tail. — Vera Mont
That all sounds quite reasonable and balanced, so why such a history of tribal/national/international and possibly global war? Why has your more balanced sounding approach not been more successful in the past and can it become so in the future?Most of us do crave the companionship of like-minded humans, and the affection of friends, family, the love and loyalty of a mate. Of course we're self-centered, but that doesn't exclude mutual help, protection and co-operation; it doesn't preclude compassion, empathy and altruism. We - as all intelligent animals - are capable of containing and balancing a large number of drives and impulses and ideas that may sometimes be in conflict, one with another. — Vera Mont
'Someday,' is the goal that has always been with us, even in the wilds. We have always been working and fighting for 'someday.' Perhaps we have also went to war to fight and die for that 'someday.'I simply believe that we can do better than we ever have in the past!
— universeness
Not at this juncture in history. Maybe someday. — Vera Mont
We each are doing what we believe we need to, and can. (except I'm shirking again. Hell isn't other people; other people - well, them and the scrabble game - are what I seek out as a relief from proofreading hell.) — Vera Mont
In what way do you think the above quote from the Spartacus movie, would impact the idea that a human slave would yearn to be free and would revolt to gain such, even if death was a likely result? — universeness
How can you love that which you do not know?death is the only freedom a slave knows about.' — Vera Mont
Which do you value most, your own company/solitude or the company of others? — universeness
1. Who are you?
2. What do you want? — universeness
That all sounds quite reasonable and balanced, so why such a history of tribal/national/international and possibly global war? — universeness
We have always been working and fighting for 'someday.' — universeness
Is part of why we 'war,' to bring 'someday' nearer? — universeness
But you choose to interact with other people here/online, which I am sure, is hell, sometimes. — universeness
The only other two possible solutions seem to me, to be, giving control to AGI or becoming one species on one planet, one global civilisation with the concept of individual nations diminishing to become a complete irrelevance. — universeness
I am sure that's a sliding scale from slave to slave. When you reach the point of being willing to gamble your life to achieve it, I think you don't just yearn for freedom you covet it with an intensity I would accept as 'love.'Yearn, sure. The contradiction is in 'love' : — Vera Mont
No-one has ever returned to them to tell them oblivion/death involves any suffering or awareness.How can you love that which you do not know? — Vera Mont
It depends entire on the 'others'. These days, few others are available; not only can I not choose the right company for the right mood, I can't choose at all: they're dead or far away, all but one who knows when I need to be alone - and we both live in constant dread of losing the other. Old age sucks ostrich eggs! — Vera Mont
As long as the 'up-slopes' produce an overall trend of progress for the human race then my optimism is maintainable and I see no global slide, that would prove Mr Pinker's 'Enlightenment Now,' completely unfounded.The up-slope - 1964-1980 - were pretty good in north America. It lasted somewhat longer in Europe - minus that hicup in the UK, and I think even longer, though it may have started later in Australia. — Vera Mont
Is part of why we 'war,' to bring 'someday' nearer?
— universeness
No. Social progress takes place in prosperous, peaceful periods, when people are not frightened. — Vera Mont
Not really. You're not real flesh-and-blood people: of any persona on the internet i don't know how much is their true self and how much is invented. I know where the door is on my mouse; I'm never trapped in a room with a bigot, a boor or a bore. I don't take these interactions too seriously: when an exchange becomes absurd, I treat it as comedy. — Vera Mont
Perhaps!Again, that's not two alternatives; that's step 1 and 2 in the same process.
The difficult, the insurmountable word in your proposition is : giving — Vera Mont
I am sure that's a sliding scale from slave to slave. — universeness
As long as the 'up-slopes' produce an overall trend of progress for the human race then my optimism is maintainable and I see no global slide, that would prove Mr Pinker's 'Enlightenment Now,' completely unfounded. — universeness
She is always 'chipper,' whenever I meet her in the street and chat. — universeness
So... Gandhi's "way of truth and love" that invariably triumphs is a wiibbly-wobbly, truthy-lovey, sliding interpretation, like biblical text. OK — Vera Mont
any particular reason why not?How much of this life I lead, should be about me? and how much of it should be about people other than me?
As a percentage, 50/50? 60/40? 90/10? 10/90, have you thought about such? — universeness
I doubt he has such a 'peace of mind,' but I also think he could defend his position very well, if you tried.Well... Let's say we have slightly different points of view. And I certainly wouldn't wish to disturb Mr. Pinker's peace of mind. — Vera Mont
(I assume you meant 'shit,' rather than 'ship')What I do find alarming is the complacent attitude of optimists toward the express-train load of bad ship coming at them. — Vera Mont
No, I don't recall saying that. I said my own respect and desire for facts does not make me fascist.
Bureaucratic organizations of some kind are unavoidable in dealing with the complex needs and interactions of a large, diverse population, especially in times of rapidly developing technological and economic change. I have no objection to a robust, competent civil service - in fact, I believe they are far more stable than elected government administrations, and can do more - allowed to operate according to their mandate - to keep politicians honest than politicians ever do one another. — Vera Mont
Humans have had wars throughout their existence; as civilizations grew bigger and more powerful, the wars grew bigger, more deadly and more frequent. They were not caused by bureaucracy or technology; they did not cause either of those things; they have always co-existed within civilization. Wars have been waged with rocks, thrown sticks, fire and long sharp knives, projectile balls and pointy things, things that go bang and things that go thud, things that poison people and sever limb from limb.
Three events changed the attitude the of US conservatives in the wake of WWII: they came out of it the overall winner, the country that scored most points and suffered least loss; they developed the atomic bomb which gave their hawks a sense of invincibility, and the Russian 'communist' state rose up as a major contender for world domination, which threw those same hawks into a state of demented paranoia.
They're both enormous problems. I don't think they're fascist -- I don't think they any longer have a coherent 'ism' or credo - that started unravelling with Nixon and his unholy alliance with the the South - or any ideology beyond grasping at power by any and all means. They - and their loyal yes-men in the congress and senate absolutely, point-blank renounce facts. They spurn the constitution, debase every agency of legitimate governance, trample on civil rights and education and deny the electorate a means of expression. They will make civil war... Well, not a new one: The American Civil War Part II.
Many experts agree that fascism is a mass political movement that emphasizes extreme nationalism, militarism, and the supremacy of both the nation and the single, powerful leader over the individual citizen. This model of government stands in contrast to liberal democracies, which support individual rights, competitive elections, and political dissent.
https://world101.cfr.org/historical-context/world-war/what-fascism#:~:text=What%20does%20fascism%20mean%3F,leader%20over%20the%20individual%20citizen.
As a 20+ I remember being in a Glasgow pub with my father.
He was not a 'hardman' himself, but he knew a few.
There was a well known Glasgow gangster in the pub, holding court with other gangsters, when I overheard him say 'I'll tell yous what a hardman is, it's just some f***er with f*** all left to lose.'
I remember a flash of Kirk Douglas playing Spartacus, flashed through my mind, saying the line 'a slave does not fear death, death is the only freedom a slave knows about.'
Over time I have thought a lot about that.
What causes humans to fight and kill each other rather than work with each other in common cause?
I know each of you could give me a long list of reasons.
I think this most important of issues has yet to be fully answered.
Is 'hell' really 'other people?'
Is it true that we love and need company but we also need solipsism to be true, but not always.
You are both intelligent people. Can intelligent people make a global human civilisation that works, or is the 'hell is other people,' concept just too strong in humans?
I simply believe that we can do better than we ever have in the past!
I don't really care how we achieve it. I have already offered my own personal top 5 horrors we need to make benign. We have spent too long in tribes, city states, nations, allies and axis, etc, at war, recovering from war and preparing for the next war. We must find ways to do better. We can talk about the past and the reasons why we are where we are now, forever.
Can we not focus on how we think we can make a better world? — universeness
I had hoped the Internet and citizens around the world would take this power away from their governments, and with the power of the people they would manifest world peace. I still hold onto this hope although I don't see this happening yet. Democracy leads to peace, not religion, and not a Military-industrial complex. We need to return to family order and end this military order. The people of the world need to unite against the Beasts that feed off of us. — Athena
How much of this life I lead, should be about me? and how much of it should be about people other than me?
As a percentage, 50/50? 60/40? 90/10? 10/90, have you thought about such? — universeness
Proofreading hell strikes back. Of course, now I can't go back to fix it; must wear that bit of eggyolk.(I assume you meant 'shit,' rather than 'ship') — universeness
I appreciate the point, but perhaps it's because we think we can get out of the way in time, or we can stop the train from doing the amount of damage pessimists are convinced it will do, — universeness
Communism, socialism, and laissez-faire capitalism are eccomic systems, not politic opposites. — Athena
No, I'm describing governance in any form.you are speaking in favor of autocracy. — Athena
Same functions. More of them.There is no way the bureaucratic order of the past could maintain the complex governments we have today. — Athena
We might thrill at learning of Sparta's military achievements, but it is Athens that originated Western civilization, not Sparta. Please give that a moment of thought. — Athena
No, I can't say I've counted the percentages of my life, or my life in percentages. I never even considered life to be about something - it's just a process that unfolds as it does, from a biological entity as it is and functions, in a world that operates as it does in a period of time that lasts as long as it does. I don't live for things or people; I live because i was born and have so far found the experience of existence more positive than negative. I think and feel, desire, aspire, act and respond in certain ways, according to my nature and condition. While that process does include contracts, rivalries, entanglements, debts, obligations, conflicts, gifts and charities, none of those are 'about other people'; they merely situations that involve other people, who are also living their own independent lives. (This is why "Who are you?" and "What do you want?" are really one question.) — Vera Mont
Thanks for your statement that you hope that fortune favours my optimism, that's quite optimistic of you. :wink:I appreciate the point, but perhaps it's because we think we can get out of the way in time, or we can stop the train from doing the amount of damage pessimists are convinced it will do,
— universeness
Yes, that's optimism. Good luck! — Vera Mont
The overall imagery I get from what you typed above gives me too much of an impression that you have been a bystander in your own life. — universeness
If I insist that you created the main purpose and meaning and legacy of your life by how you chose to manipulate the variables you had to work with. — universeness
Why does that not compel you to accept that life is indeed 'about something?' — universeness
Merely polite. I'm 97% sure you'll fail.that's quite optimistic of you. — universeness
I also, was, and still am, 'doing' and I also regularly review what I did, why I did it, who I was, who and what I have become and what I now want. So, I also choose to calculateI was doing - working, helping, arguing, loving, protesting, partying, parenting, growing, making and repairing things, teaching, volunteering, writing - not calculating. — Vera Mont
Do you know of anything other than 'life' for creating meaning, purpose and legacy?I don't believe lives or Life have a purpose. — Vera Mont
'Other people' can surely exemplify 'something.'Being compelled is not a condition I readily accept from anyone. Besides, you've just pulled one of those shifts forum posters so often do. You asked what percent of my life was "about other people" and you've now changed it to "about something". — Vera Mont
I have already succeeded in many ways, so it depends what you mean.Merely polite. I'm 97% sure you'll fail. — Vera Mont
Do you know of anything other than 'life' for creating meaning, purpose and legacy? — universeness
If your students actually do derail that fast-approaching ship-train, that's quite an accomplishment!I have already succeeded in many ways, so it depends what you mean. — universeness
That article is very much worth reading. Athena could maybe get some insight, too.Nobody wants what’s coming, so nobody wants to see what’s coming.
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has reopened those wounds. The Russo-Ukrainian war is becoming chronic and the spectre of a world war can be glimpsed on the horizon: the west against Russia, China and other allies. The Nobel Peace Prize recognition awarded to the European Union in 2012, for having transformed a continent of war into a continent of peace, seems unjustified today.https://www.socialeurope.eu/the-new-european-civil-war
Britain’s existential threat is not simply the result of poor governance—an undeniable reality—but of something much deeper: the manifestation of something close to a spiritual crisis.https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2022/01/will-britain-survive/621095/
I broadly agree with the content of your statement above, but the term 'family order' can be problematic in the variations it can manifest.
In my world, I would not allow a single tier of government to have full control over the military or the police. I would have a second, as powerful, elected tier of stakeholder representatives. Citizens, who represented all major worker groups, age and gender based reps also, etc. This citizens house, would have to agree to any war declaration or invasion of another nation, that the government of the day proposed.
The government would have full control over all forces in the case of an outside attack on the nation.
New ways to wield political authority must be found. I would also get rid of party politics.
We must vote for people not political parties. — universeness
So what? That doesn't make any difference to their similar bureaucratic support structure. — Vera Mont
You made me aware of the possible value of a high school class that is about the different bureaucratic organizations and what makes each governing different. — Athena
No, I'm describing governance in any form. — Vera Mont
Did he dissect their structures of civil service? Those are very similar: judicial, defence, foreign affairs, financial/commercial, infrastructure, social service, oversight.At breakfast this morning the gentleman I sat next to gave me explanations of the different forms of government and they are very different. — Athena
The communist form of government owns and controls all resources. — Athena
time for some serious homework!In the US the government owns and controls very little. — Athena
In one hundred years we have gone from an empty frontier — Athena
Yeeesssto cities having no available land from industries and housing, forcing the cities to use the land that does become available for apartments. — Athena
We have this problem because our reality has changed and people don't like change, so they resist change — Athena
How do you think we should manage our changed reality? — Athena
How do you think we should manage our changed reality? — Athena
Another change is people are living twice as long and the population of old people is huge and growing! What happens to them when they can no longer care for themselves? Should this be a social concern or strictly a private concern? — Athena
About the family order. What do you think family is about? — Athena
We had two narrative poems to study in Gr 13: Death of a Hired Man and In a Tuscan Villa They both made an impression - plus, I had a massive crush on my English teacher. Dark curls, pink cheeks, blue eyes; spent a couple of summer vacations desegregating Alabama, which was none of his business as a Canadian, but I admired it....Home is the place where, when you have to go there, They have to take you in.’ https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44261/the-death-of-the-hired-man
Of course they were possible! The elite liked their feudal lordship and wouldn't let go until the depression, the union movement and the wars forced them to. The government wasn't weak; it had a capitalist mind-set, was composed of the financial elite.As I said, these government programs were impossible before we adopted the German model of bureaucracy. — Athena
“The business of America is business!”
This often repeated phrase was reported to be first said by President Calvin Coolidge, in a January 1925 speech to newspaper editors. Coolidge or “Silent Cal” was president during a rapid expansion of the US economy known as the “Roaring Twenties,” just before the Great Depression and the hardship and suffering associated with our economy’s greatest collapse.
Roosevelt’s New Deal fundamentally and permanently changed the U.S. federal government by expanding its size and scope—especially its role in the economy.
Why, thank you! In 20 years I shall be 96 years and three weeks old. I just hope my arthritis doesn't get too much worse. But I guess my computer will work on thought-control, or I'll have a support robot....By the way, I think you are doing an amazing job of managing these arguments for a young person. In another 20 years of arguing you will be awesome. — Athena
In the US the government owns and controls very little.
— Athena
time for some serious homework! — Vera Mont
... owned, occupied, hunted and revered by about 200 nations you choose not to acknowledge.... — Vera Mont
but there are alternative distributions of land, property, usage.... — Vera Mont
That's not it. I think you need a different perspective on the problem. — Vera Mont
Family isn't 'about' something, any more than life is. Family is part of life, of the organization of social animals. Among modern humans, it can be the stuff of nightmares - or a warm support-structure. I guess in complex civilizations, it's more often nightmarish than in primitive ones because everything is so much more complicated and stressful. But mostly because the men are abused and emotionally crippled by the system, so they turn around and abuse whoever can't fight back. — Vera Mont
Why, thank you! In 20 years I shall be 96 years and three weeks old. I just hope my arthritis doesn't get too much worse. But I guess my computer will work on thought control, or I'll have a support robot... — Vera Mont
In one hundred years we have gone from an empty frontier to cities having no available land from industries and housing, forcing the cities to use the land that does become available for apartments. — Athena
I didn't say countries; I said nations. That frontier had to be emptied - by any means - before they could be totally despoiled by European settlers. But I admit to exaggeration: it's only two dozen.What countries do I fail to acknowledge and what should that acknowledgment be? — Athena
The Mexican-American War of 1846 to 1848 marked the first U.S. armed conflict chiefly fought on foreign soil. It pitted a politically divided and militarily unprepared Mexico against the expansionist-minded administration of U.S. President James K. Polk, who believed the United States had a “Manifest Destiny” to spread across the continent to the Pacific Ocean.
which was necessary because Napoleon's warring immersed France even deeper into debt... which came about partly as a result of the US refusing to pay off its debt to France from the war of independence, saying it had been borrowed from the monarchy, not the post-revolutionary government, but the debt France had incurred in helping the US gain independence was itself a major contributary factor in the French Revolution... They eventually resolved the financial mess, but not before almost going to war against the country that had been their staunchest ally ten years before. Oh, what a tangled web, indeed!The Louisiana Purchase encompassed 530,000,000 acres of territory in North America that the United States purchased from France in 1803 for $15 million.
Please give examples of those alternatives. — Athena
And I don't think I've been unclear. The Disunited States of America has never been the country it likes to sing about; it has never been democratic, just, free, or peaceful. It cannot be any of those things now. The electoral system is not 'broken'; it was badly designed to begin with. While injecting a dose of truth into the school curriculum would certainly be useful, that's simply not possible under states rights, when bigots in power can strike down human rights and freedom of speech arbitrarily. I'm talking about the current political reality as it is, not as we wish it were.Can you be more clear about what you are talking about? — Athena
I think we need to know our history to be sane about our reality. — Athena
In their [Douglas] fourth debate, at Charleston, Illinois, on September 18, 1858, Lincoln made his position clear. “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and Black races,” he began, going on to say that he opposed Black people having the right to vote, to serve on juries, to hold office and to intermarry with whites.
The US democracy came with a lot of baggage and the first thing that had to be done was spread over a wilderness an establish a civilization. — Athena
But now we need to analyze that history and our ideas of democracy and what the best society looks like and then plan how to make that transition. Replacing the autocratic model of industry with Deming's model and returning education to for democracy, might resolve many problems, including having happier and healthier families. — Athena
So for how long have you engaged with others and how have you prepared to be a knowledgeable person? — Athena
Had to be done? Really? — Vera Mont
Well, then the conquest, the colonizing, the land-grabs, the land grants, the settlement, that whole big 'civilizing the wilderness' process couldn't have happened, could it? Remember, the natives were pushed off the east coast first, then on from the center and westward, always killing more, to make room for the English and Spanish and French people. There would be no USA or Canada or Mexico, or those odious Latin American dictatorships.About the US spreading from coast to coast. First off I wish the Native Americans had been able to hold their own ground, and that they had retained the governing power. — Athena
We need to explore that old baggage and the alternatives. — Athena
That's okay, I have things to do, too. We finally liberated that kitten from behind my bed and I have to clean the room and move the furniture back.I hate to leave. — Athena
A time travel storyline is also quite a lazy way to go imo, and my least fav storyline of any sci-fi series. — universeness
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