There was one or two that were set in times other than the 20th century.
The series 'Enterprise,' set at the point where humans first set off into inter-stellar travel with Captain Jonathon Archer, had a lot of time travel episodes that went forward and backwards in time.
'The temporal cold war,' was a recurring theme.
In deep space 9 we had the two episodes called 'past tense' set in 2024, etc
But in general, you are correct, most of the Star Trek franchise, restrict their time travelling episodes to the 20th century. My favourite time travel style episodes were from Deep Space 9.
The two part episode called 'Far beyond the stars,' But I enjoyed that more because it was also about the terrible racism of those times and the 'fun' episode 'trials and tribulations,' as it mixed with an episode from the original series.

I agree. "Time travel" & "parallel universe" stories in "scifi" almost always have idiot plots. Anyway, I'd prefer a very faithful, high production animated adaptation (continuation or reboot) series of 1960s-era Star Trek to any live-action movies or shows such as Picard, Discovery, Strange New Worlds, etc – all of which, just like TNG, DS9, Voy & Ent, are unwatchably boring to me. Maybe a new animated B5 movie will be better than no new B5? Hopefully the writing and voice acting will be good enough to evoke the original show. :nerd:

There are very, very few animated movies I've enjoyed. Certainly not any made from a tv series I actually like - not that keen most of the post-series movies, for that matter. It took a second run at it before I could accept the remake of Cosmos, because the cartoon sequences reduced it somehow.
Never watched much of Enterprise, probably because it was made in the monochromatic period of scifi - also couldn't engage with the new characters. The 2024 episodes of DS 9 were good, but the 1930's ones were better - or rather, I enjoyed the role-changes of the actors; some of their best work, I thought. The alternate universe ones were overdone. (Of course, we've seen them so many times, we're down to minute criticism of makeup and set design, hooting at the big clumpy copmputers and comparing the relative beauty of facial features.)

I guess this is all relevant to culture - if tangentially.

It took a second run at it before I could accept the remake of Cosmos, because the cartoon sequences reduced it somehow. — Vera Mont

I think that series with Neil De Grasse Tyson was a complete waste of time. Why try to remake the same series Carl Sagan delivered almost to perfection. The animated sequences were sooooooo poor. They even tried to promote their own stupid historical judgements such as portraying Joseph Hooker as some kind of evil character, in that awful and shameful animated sequence.
It would have been much better if they made some episodes that updated Carl's seminal series.

I guess this is all relevant to culture - if tangentially. — Vera Mont

Well, @Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time.

Maybe a new animated B5 movie will be better than no new B5? — 180 Proof

I do think Mr Straczynski is trying to protect his 'baby' from the corporate profiteers, but I suppose it's hard to know who are the true good, bad and ugly characters in that world.

I think that series with Neil De Grasse Tyson was a complete waste of time. Why try to remake the same series Carl Sagan delivered almost to perfection. — universeness

I decided it was made for schoolchildren.

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. — universeness

There is also the aspect of futuristic, dystopian, post-apocalyptic and speculative fiction: occasions to consider what kind of future we're likely to have if we proceed on a given direction - and what kind of future would be preferable. To which end, we have to make decisions in the present.

Maybe a new animated B5 movie will be better than no new B5?
— 180 Proof
I do think Mr Straczynski is trying to protect his 'baby' from the corporate profiteers, but I suppose it's hard to know who are the true good, bad and ugly characters in that world. — universeness

"They" all are. Though I'm not a fan of B5, I nonetheless tip my glass to Mr. Straczynski's creative struggle against Mammon.

Well, then the conquest, the colonizing, the land-grabs, the land grants, the settlement, that whole big 'civilizing the wilderness' process couldn't have happened, could it? — Vera Mont

My reasoning involves an explanation of East India and Hinduism as well as some knowledge of the 6 Nations of the Iroquois The Hindu story begins with a violent war and comes to an agreement about having peace. I am not sure, but the agreement to have peace seems to rule, however, Muslims have forced war on them in some areas. And the British occupation led to violence.

According to their founding tradition, the Peacemaker story, these Iroquois peoples—who had warred with each other for decades—came together between 1570 and 1600 to live in peace and harmony after Hiawatha, a mourning Onondaga, joined the itinerant Peacemaker (Dekanawidah) in pursuing unity among the Iroquois. The resulting confederacy, whose governing Great Council of 50 peace chiefs, or sachems (hodiyahnehsonh), still meets in a longhouse, is made up of six nations: the Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and Tuscarora. — Jeff Wallenfeldt

My conclusion is it is possible for people to live for peace and to benefit from forming unity. Each tribe would have sovereignty as the United States are supposed to have sovereignty. However, the warring Europeans have a different cultural motivation that I think is worth studying, and that all these groups of people need to be taken into consideration when discussing human nature. A continental civilization ruled primarily by those who have a spiritual relationship with the earth could have occurred. However, such a civilization may not develop technologically.

Who's "we"? — Vera Mont

Whoever wants to join us.

This is the question I keep coming back to. I don't think the US has any coherent collective; — Vera Mont

Would you please include those knowledgeable of Greek and Roman classics in the discussion of coherent collective? Preferably everyone who becomes one of us will be at least a little familiar with our history and cross-cultural studies or is at least willing to learn. If thinking stops with people only knowing their own life experiences that is not going to be helpful.

Can you look around at your fellow citizens and answer those questions? — Vera Mont

I think the answer is education and some awesome information is coming to us in the form of movies and documentaries. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?

I can't. Not about Canada and not about any modern federation. Even the organic European nations, like Denmark, have lost their monoethnicity and divided on key issues. — Vera Mont

Guaranteed things will keep changing. Civilizations tend to swing. When things get bad enough they swing in the opposite direction. But do all of your concerns really matter? The only one you control is you. In the 1960's we said, "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". We can either devote ourselves to being part of the solution, or we can be part of the problem.

That's okay, I have things to do, too. We finally liberated that kitten from behind my bed and I have to clean the room and move the furniture back. — Vera Mont

:love: Good for you. You turned something bad into something good. Enjoy your freshly cleaned room.

Hey, folks. This morning the guy I was helping was found unconscious in the road by his car. The ambulance has taken him away and I don't know what happened or will happen next. I expect it was another stroke. If he survives I hope he will be given a place to live where people are paid to help him. Right now I am finding it extremely difficult to focus and process thoughts. I think I will rest and try participating in the forum this afternoon. Right now, I am wondering what the F? I did not expect to have emotions that make my brain feel like scrambled eggs. Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?

Yes, indeed, there were, in the past, as now, many different people and if history had gone down differently, there would have been a different outcome.

. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one? — Athena

No thanks!
The first one gets crucified and becomes a folk-hero; the next thousand are tortured and killed in creative and humiliating ways; another 10,000 are wounded on the barricades or jailed. Then the side either wins and puts up all new flags and statues or loses and sinks into oblivion.
Who wants to look up at a homely version of Queen Victoria in her declining years?

Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack? — Athena

There are some things worth trying. Find a place - a park, a garden a balcony, even a favourite room, where you like everything your eye can possibly land on. If there are jarring or annoying bits, remove them or turn your back on them. Sit in comfortable chair with a soothing drink of choice, and just veg out. Let yourself drift for a while; don't think; don't try to process information; don't speculate or wonder. Just drift. Emotions come - don't try to analyze or resist them, just let them wash over you like waves. One passes on, another one comes to replace it, passes. They leave you tired and feeling empty. Then do a minimum of necessary chores and go to bed. Stay there as long as you need to.
When you get up again, cope with one thing at a time, until you feel in control again.

Hey, folks. This morning the guy I was helping was found unconscious in the road by his car. The ambulance has taken him away and I don't know what happened or will happen next. I expect it was another stroke. If he survives I hope he will be given a place to live where people are paid to help him. Right now I am finding it extremely difficult to focus and process thoughts. I think I will rest and try participating in the forum this afternoon. Right now, I am wondering what the F? I did not expect to have emotions that make my brain feel like scrambled eggs. Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack? — Athena

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

I do.
My reasoning normally begins around, 'I am not directly responsible for everything bad that happens to everyone in this world.' Then at some point (normally within the hour),' I get fed up being fed up and I reach the 'the next hour will pass, thought, regardless of whether or not I decide to pass it in a depressed and pessimistic state, or a renewed optimistic state.' I can choose, to live the next hour as a curse or I can go and look at something more positive. Maybe I can observe something positive happening, that happens all around me, all the time. The pulse of life and living continuing. I sometimes just look at my bookshelf, and that can do it, based on my own notions of legacy or I stare for a while at the big print I have on a wall of the hubble ultra deep field. Looking into the content of that print, always destroys any moments of depression, I may temporarily experience.
My final recovery, normally involves some personal gratitude to myself that events in the world and around me can still depress me, as that must mean I still give a shit!
Do not surrender to 'tock' Athena, when 'tick' still tolls for you!
2 hours ago — universeness

Thank you. I seriously need to find some way to get my forest mural on the wall. My apartment has paint that will not stick to the alien tape and the wall is too hard to put thumbtacks in it. But I think your suggestion of looking into a picture is excellent. My favorite place of beauty is along a river and in the forest.

Actually, a good night's sleep has done wonders and somehow I have to get his car windows up so the rain doesn't get in his car and also so I can lock his car before someone steals his stuff. Having something concrete to do helps. And my self-defense has kicked in with a sense of denial. We will see how my body reacts when I visit him this morning. I pick a great-grandson later this morning, for his special day with me, so I can not get upset. The child needs a positive influence. I need to keep moving forward.

Reading we are not responsible for what happens is helpful. I will work on that and I may actually walk by the river while I meditate on that point. Thank you.

Yes, indeed, there were, in the past, as now, many different people and if history had gone down differently, there would have been a different outcome.

. As in all human movements there needs to be leaders. Are you willing to be one?
— Athena
No thanks!
The first one gets crucified and becomes a folk-hero; the next thousand are tortured and killed in creative and humiliating ways; another 10,000 are wounded on the barricades or jailed. Then the side either wins and puts up all new flags and statues or loses and sinks into oblivion.
Who wants to look up at a homely version of Queen Victoria in her declining years?

Does anyone know how to deal with this emotional hijack?
— Athena

There are some things worth trying. Find a place - a park, a garden a balcony, even a favourite room, where you like everything your eye can possibly land on. If there are jarring or annoying bits, remove them or turn your back on them. Sit in comfortable chair with a soothing drink of choice, and just veg out. Let yourself drift for a while; don't think; don't try to process information; don't speculate or wonder. Just drift. Emotions come - don't try to analyze or resist them, just let them wash over you like waves. One passes on, another one comes to replace it, passes. They leave you tired and feeling empty. Then do a minimum of necessary chores and go to bed. Stay there as long as you need to.
When you get up again, cope with one thing at a time, until you feel in control again. — Vera Mont

Yipes your explanation of what happens to the good guy could be very depressing. However, there is an upside too. What is the saying, "A martyr is worth ten thousand of us." I often wonder if we would know of Socrates if he did not drink the hemlock instead of leaving Athens. To be known for centuries is a pretty big achievement and Socrates did lead us away from superstitious belief in the gods. Teachers impact the lives of many children and in some cases, the students impact the lives of others as the student goes on to do great things.

Sometimes we can have a strong influence on someone and not ever know it. There is another saying that when we meet someone, some of us goes with that person and we carry some of that person with us. We can see everything as interconnected and that our being could be more important than we will ever know. Like, our disagreement is equal to saying the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. Both are a reality.

About handling negative feelings I must find the energy to walk along the river. Another guy I help, would love it if I took him and his dog to the river path. I use a walker on the paths so I can sit wherever the view of the river is pleasing and wait for my friend with the dog to catch up with me. I am getting a deeper sense of why some Greeks argued that beauty and good music are important. Both are a part of good maintenance. So is reaching out to others. I feel supported by both of you and that helps a lot.

To be known for centuries is a pretty big achievement and Socrates did lead us away from superstitious belief in the gods. — Athena

Socrates didn't lead anybody anywhere. The stubborn old sod just did his own thing, whatever anybody else said or wanted.
Some students, then and in the distant future were influenced by his ideas in their thinking. Not as many as were influenced by Marx or Zoroaster, but some.
And then what? It did him no good. It didn't change the governance or future of Athens. It subtracted nothing from the worship of gods, which continues to this day and beyond. It didn't end slavery, halt religious conflict, prevent territorial wars, curtail imperialism, end racism, sexism, ideological madness or genocide.

Like, our disagreement is equal to saying the glass is half empty or the glass is half full. Both are a reality. — Athena

Both are a reality at some minuscule point in the cycle, just as a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day for second. In the real reality, at any given moment, it's an unknown hour and minute and the glass is either in the process of filling or emptying.

I feel supported by both of you and that helps a lot. — Athena

So do dogs and rivers! And your own resilience.

Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness

Thank you!

Read it now
The Aesop for Children interactive book is designed to be enjoyed by readers of any age. The book contains over 140 classic fables, accompanied by beautiful illustrations and interactive animations.

"Aesop's Fables"—also called "the Aesopica"—are a collection of stories designed to teach moral lessons credited to Aesop, a Greek slave and story-teller thought to have lived between 620 and 560 BCE.

Aesop's fables are some of the most well known in the world and have been translated in multiple languages and become popular in dozens of cultures through the course of five centuries. They have been told and retold in a variety of media, from oral tradition to written storybooks to stage, film and animated cartoon versions—even in architecture.

The fables remain a popular choice for moral education of children today. Younger scholars will be able to trace the origin of aphorisms such as "sour grapes" and "a bird in the hand." — Library of Congress

What I would like all citizens of the US to know is that these fables and fables from around the world have been used to teach morality since the beginning of secular public education. Originally our secular education was about transmitting a culture for a highly moral civilization and turning all our young into good citizens. Thoams Jefferson so such an education as vital to having a strong and united republic. This is the very reason I write. Christianity is no more compatible with democracy than Islam and the Koran. Both the Loran and the Bible originate updated versions of the Torah and these religions are divisive and favor a kingdom, not democracy. And education for technology is NOT education for good moral judgment and democracy.

Socrates didn't lead anybody anywhere. Some students in the distant future were influenced by ideas in their thinking. Not as many many as were influenced by Marx or Zoroaster, but some.
And then what? It did him no good. It didn't change the governance or future of Athens. It subtracted nothing from the worship of gods, which continues to this day and beyond. It didn't end slavery, halt religious conflict, prevent territorial wars, curtail imperialism, end racism, sexism, ideological madness or genocide. — Vera Mont

My goodness, Socrates has influenced western civilization for centuries. He was Plato's teacher and Plato was Aristotle's teacher, and I can not think of anyone who has influenced Western civilization more. These men have influenced much more of the world than Athens.

The Catholic church developed Scholasticism based on the teachings of Plato and Aristotle.

[qutoe]The Scholastic period
The period extending from the beginning of Christian speculation to the time of St. Augustine, inclusive, is known as the Patristic era in philosophy and theology. In general, that era inclined to Platonism and underestimated the importance of Aristotle. The Fathers strove to construct on Platonic principles a system of Christian philosophy. They brought reason to the aid of Revelation. They leaned, however, towards the doctrine of the mystics, and, in ultimate resort, relied more on spiritual intuition than on dialectical proof for the establishment and explanation of the highest truths of philosophy. Between the end of the Patristic era in the fifth century and the beginning of the Scholastic era in the ninth there intervene a number of intercalary thinkers, as they may be called, like Claudianus Mamertus, Boethius, Cassiodorus, St. Isidore of Seville, Venerable Bede etc., who helped to hand down to the new generation the traditions of the Patristic age and to continue into the Scholastic era the current of Platonism. With the Carolingian revival of learning in the ninth century began a period of educational activity which resulted in a new phase of Christian thought known as Scholasticism. The first masters of the schools in the ninth century Alcuin, Rabanus, etc., were not indeed, more original than Boethius or Cassiodorus; the first original thinker in the Scholastic era was John the Scot (see JOHN SCOTUS ERIUGENA). Nevertheless they inaugurated the Scholastic movement because they endeavoured to bring the Patristic (principally the Augustinian) tradition into touch with the new life of European Christianity. They did not abandon Platonism. They knew little of Aristotle except as a logician. But by the emphasis they laid on dialectical reasoning, they gave a new direction to Christian tradition in philosophy. In the curriculum of the schools in which they taught, philosophy was represented by dialectic. On the textbooks of dialectic which they used they wrote commentaries and glosses, into which, little by little, they admitted problems of psychology, metaphysics, cosmology, and ethics, so that the Scholastic movement as a whole may be said to have sprung from the discussions of the dialecticians. https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13548a.htm [/quote]

Eventually, Aristotle (inductive reasoning) became all-important, and then Bacon brought in deductive reasoning and there was a huge backlash against Aristotle and inductive reasoning. At this point in time begins the modern age and the development of science as we know it.

Are you sure you want to continue your argument? The HUGE problem today is Christians are so ignorant of the importance of these men and their understanding of God which is Platonist.

So do dogs and rivers! And your own resilience. — Vera Mont

:grin: :heart: Thank you. I wish I could have my own dog, but bending over to pick up what a dog leaves behind is too painful for me and I can not afford vet bills. But I just had to buy a stuffed puppy when I lost my dog. That was harder for me to get over than dealing with people leaving. That was a visceral experience that lasted for weeks. I had to have a friend walk with me in the parks where I had walked my dog because I didn't think I could bare being in the parks again. Thanks to that friend, I am enjoying the parks again.

And then what? It did him no good. It didn't change the governance or future of Athens. It subtracted nothing from the worship of gods, which continues to this day and beyond. It didn't end slavery, halt religious conflict, prevent territorial wars, curtail imperialism, end racism, sexism, ideological madness or genocide. — Vera Mont

His death served the personal purpose, causes and meaning he cherished most in his life imo. If your death can serve your life, then you die well, imo. It then becomes a legacy question for those who hear the 'true' story of your life, to agree or disagree that your death served your life. A suicide bomber may also think their death served their life and they died well, but we always have the counter point that one persons hero is another persons terrorist.

You have no way to measure the affect the legacy of Socrates had/has on any of the issues you mentioned above. The nature and spread and power of slavery, god worship, territorial war, imperialism, racism, sexism, ideological madness and even genocide, have all changed significantly since the days of Socrates. It's just as valid to credit all improvements made in those issues, directly to Socrates as it is to credit no aspect of improvements made whatsoever to Socrates.

Both are a reality at some minuscule point in the cycle, just as a broken watch tells the correct time twice a day for second. In the real reality, at any given moment, it's an unknown hour and minute and the glass is either in the process of filling or emptying. — Vera Mont

The difference is that the pessimist will continue to complain that there are too many broken watches that only have any use twice a day, whereas your time would be better spent planning and plotting how to obtain a new more reliable, more robust, functioning timepiece, whilst quenching your thirst, on a hot day, by drinking your half full glass of ...... and planning and plotting how you intend to refill or even half refill your and everyone else's glass.

To complement your point on pessimism (if I may be allowed to do so), the dawning of the realisation that problems are not our inevitable default state as the worthwhile parts of our lives are not so frail that they cannot ultimately triumph over our afflictions could also help. What may initially seem inappreciable could assume a power of mythical proportions once we begin to restrict unnecessary desires and a proclivity for fixating on the negatives. I would not say that this would work for everyone, but I believe that it would be wrong-headed to depreciate the positives.

Good to hear from you! I read your recent posts on the AN one trick pony trek. As usual your points were well made. What for you is 'true' regarding the concept of balance?
Is the concept of balance critical to the Hindu 'culture?'
In any human culture can good=evil achieve balance?

Thank you for your reply. By "balance", I only meant that we should, generally, be cautious when it comes to accepting absolute views (like life is always good or always bad). Mahatma Gandhi (who was a Hindu) was able to unify a large number of people (not everyone, of course) because he was always willing to see things from the perspectives of others and did not believe that his own views were the sole path to the truth. His belief in Advaita Vedanta (which is non-dualistic and can support more than one interpretation of ultimate reality) did influence him tremendously.

In my own life, I have seen the pitfalls of leaning too much towards abstract ideas or going uncomfortably close to materialism. Therefore, I try my best not to be pigeonholed. This doesn't mean that I never adopt a definite stance; it merely makes it true that I, usually, do not go extremely near any pole.

I hope that you will have a wonderful day/night.

I have seen the pitfalls of leaning too much towards abstract ideas or going uncomfortably close to materialism. — DA671

Which definition of materialism are you cautioning against here?
1. A tendency to consider material possessions and physical comfort as more important than spiritual values:
2. The theory or belief that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
3. The theory or belief that consciousness and will are wholly due to material agency.

I will put my 'balance' questions another way?

Does 'balance' exist as a linear mid-point between human concepts of good and evil?
If so, is political/social/economic/emotional balance a valid goal within any human created civilisation?
If we achieved a balanced civilisation, would we quickly get bored with it in your opinion?

In the context of this discussion, I was referring to (1). But I wouldn't even propose that we ought to focus on "spiritual" values. I think that being able to not neglect our relationships and our place in nature could do wonders for our collective well-being. At the same time, I wouldn't become a primitivist and suggest that all technology and materialism is inherently bad.

It's a complex idea (because the world is not a one-dimensional place) and much depends upon our intuitions. I don't necessarily deny the existence of good and evil, but I do think that the boundaries are more nebulous than we may believe. For example, it may not always be clear when we transition from a benevolent desire to ensure equality to a seemingly unending tyranny. At a more individual level, it does appear to be advantageous to the welfare of a family if a healthy balance between discipline (which doesn't turn into oppression) and freedom (which doesn't morph into utter chaos) is maintained. It is, of course, harder to know where exactly we have to stop, which is why constant evaluation and dialogue can be useful.

I think that, unfortunately, people do tend to get "bored" with certain good elements of life without appreciating their value. Here in India, it has become almost a fashion for people to incessantly attack people like Mahatma Gandhi and Pandit Nehru without recognising the fact that they were dealing with a situation that necessitated a holistic outlook. Howebeit, I do understand that there can be a threat stagnation, so we should always continue to explore new ideas. I would simply argue that adoption should not be done without consultations and too hastily. In the end, I remain optimistic that people will do the right thing. If we have managed to reach a point where people from all over the globe can jointly form a community around life's most profound questions, where smallpox is no longer a reality, where millions have been lifted out of poverty instead of being lost to a Malthusian pit of doom, I think that we possess good reasons to be careful but not unreservedly pessimistic.

It's a complex idea (because the world is not a one-dimensional place) and much depends upon our intuitions — DA671

Can the concept of balance exist in 1D or 2D? You cant 'fall' in flatland or lineland. :nerd:

the Greek poet Hesiod (c.700 bc), ‘observe due measure; moderation is best in all things’, and of the Roman comic dramatist Plautus (c. 250–184 bc), ‘moderation in all things is the best policy.’

Perhaps the idea of all things in moderation, would remove the possibility of 'passion' from our lives and reduce the 'buzz' of adventure and 'going boldly where no one has gone before.'
People will say bizarre stuff like "I will give this 110% of my effort,' etc. It's illogical but I am still attracted to the passion involved.
I think humans need a little imbalance, to feel more alive. It may turn out that some imbalance is culturally critical. Perhaps the wisest goal is for the human race to stop swinging from one extreme to the other, as we seem to have done, historically. But we should never covet perfect balance either, as we would lose too much. What do you think about 'no pain no gain?'

Maybe we could draw a line. But then again, balance as a concept is only required in a diverse reality like ours.

This part of my previous reply to you is essentially an expression of agreement with your position:

"Howebeit, I do understand that there can be a threat stagnation, so we should always continue to explore new ideas. I would simply argue that adoption should not be done without consultations and too hastily."

You are undoubtedly right that we should not cease moving forward altogether. My view would be that we should not do so at a breakneck speed so that we could spot potentially better roads.

I don't think that pain is always crucial for gaining something good (as that seems to make the positives depend upon the negatives). Still, I do believe that, once we have lost something valuable, we can overcome our difficulties and achieve an adequate degree of happiness. It's surely better to do so rather than being deprived of even more good aspects of existence as a consequence of inaction and trepidation.

I broadly agree but I also think that becoming over-cautious can also be unwise.
Is 'no pain no gain,' not cautious enough, in your opinion? Would you consider yourself risk averse?

Yes, I completely agree. This is why I wrote about the danger of "stagnation".

I think that "no pain, no gain" is indeed cautious as long as we don't focus too much on the gain part and don't assume that it would always be there.

I would consider myself risk-averse when it comes to unnecessary risks (ones that are created out of a temporary but strong desire). However, I would not wish to single-mindedly obsessed over the risks and ignore the opportunities that lie before us.

I would consider myself risk-averse when it comes to unnecessary risks (ones that are created out of a temporary but strong desire). — DA671

But it can often be a great risk to try to fight the powers that currently be, especially if they are hurting sooooo many people, every day.
Mr Modi in India and his rather extreme 'manipulation' (if you agree that his use, is such) of Hinduism for example? Should people fight against such? Considering the potential risks involved?

The intensity of some risks is undeniable, which is why they would not be classified as "unnecessary" risks. My point was we should not intentionally seek them if we don't have to.

In addition, great risks also can also give us great opportunities. If the risk involves a fundamental perversion of a religion or democracy, then the opportunity entails their redemption. People should definitely not avert their gaze if something invaluable is being taken away.

I think our broad common ground is maintained.

:up:

My goodness, Socrates has influenced western civilization for centuries. — Athena

And Aristotle taught Alexander the Great Butcher. Socrates himself didn't set up shop as a master or found a school or lead a movement, or even commit a doctrine to paper.

Yes - they influenced warring, racist, slave-owning, religious crusading, imperialistic, clergy- aristocracy- and banker-ridden, nationalistic, militaristic, plague-carrying, mass-murdering, European civilization, which they then forced on other peoples around the world. And that's a good thing? OK

The nature and spread and power of slavery, god worship, territorial war, imperialism, racism, sexism, ideological madness and even genocide, have all changed significantly since the days of Socrates.

Really? Well, they sure got bigger in the ensuing 2000 years! What is the "before" you're comparing the "since" to? And how do you measure the contribution of Socrates vs the contribution of Paul of Tarsus - or all the other men who wrote down philosophies along the way?

His death served the personal purpose, causes and meaning he cherished most in his life imo. If your death can serve your life, then you die well, imo. — universeness

No question. That doesn't mean being held up as a martyr, a legend, a beacon to Bacon, or long-term influencer does you any good at all.

The difference is that the pessimist will continue to complain — universeness

Pessimists don't complain; they know it would be a waste of breath. They observe and comment and predict. I observe that the only way I know that each broken watch tells the correct time twice a day is that there is a still-functional watch to which I can compare it. I observe that more watches are being broken than are being repaired. I predict that, if all the watches are broken, nobody will know the correct time.
(I predict that an optimist will leap on that statement as a cheetah leaps on a gazelle and tell me that they'll check their cellphone for an even more accurate time, because "we" have progressed so far beyond watches, and it's all due to the ghost of Socrates in the technological machinery. Whereupon the pessimist observes that a metaphor can be stretched too far.)

and planning and plotting how you intend to refill or even half refill your and everyone else's glass. — universeness

Not plotting or intending; just prescribing. The ways and means are up to whomever I influence in my 'legacy'.