The nature and spread and power of slavery, god worship, territorial war, imperialism, racism, sexism, ideological madness and even genocide, have all changed significantly since the days of Socrates.
Really? Well, they sure got bigger in the ensuing 2000 years! What is the "before" you're comparing the "since" to? And how do you measure the contribution of Socrates vs the contribution of Paul of Tarsus - or all the other men who wrote down philosophies along the way? — Vera Mont
But you are not the only judge of such Vera! I don't choose to call Alexander 'great,' I don't think you do either but I would still have a lot of work to do to convince all future mention of him to replace 'great' with 'butcher.'No question. That doesn't mean being held up as a martyr, a legend, a beacon to Bacon, or long-term influencer does you any good at all. — Vera Mont
Complaining is the main sustenance of all pessimists! They observe, yes, and then their comments are complaints and their predictions are doom laden and quickly become tiresome, unless they choose to finally employ some phrase such as, 'this is just my opinion guys,' or 'This is just how I feel about the situation.' etc. Then it's time to offer them some tea and sympathy whilst me, the optimist, twitches the curtain, just to check for any mushroom clouds nearby, in-case, before the blast hits, I get to shout, "YOU WERE R..........Pessimists don't complain; they know it would be a waste of breath. They observe and comment and predict. — Vera Mont
As an optimist, I know that there is no correct time, as all time is relative. Time is an individual experience from cradle to grave. I like that Carlo Rovelli based, description of time.nobody will know the correct time. — Vera Mont
Not plotting or intending; just prescribing. The ways and means are up to whomever I influence in my 'legacy'. — Vera Mont
I see. Absolute proof, then.It seems to me that all the issues you mentioned were worse, the further you go back in the history of our hominid species. — universeness
It seems to me; therefore it is so.But you are not the only judge of such Vera! — universeness
So legacy does have some importance for you after all Vera. — universeness
Only in the same way that your opinions are absolute proof.I see. Absolute proof, then. — Vera Mont
I reject your 'talisman' imagery as such is woo woo based.No; hence the 'quotation marks'. It's something you held up as a talisman; as worth striving, fighting, suffering and dying for. — Vera Mont
Your life is fairly well memorialised imo. Vera. Who is trying to 'flatten you?'For damn sure flattening me would not retard the wheel of progress by one microsecond. — Vera Mont
To me, having lived, is a legacy on its own. — universeness
Who is trying to 'flatten you?' — universeness
I don't know whether he's deluding himself and don't care: whatever makes people feel good is all right with me, so long as what makes them feel good doesn't make someone else feel bad.Would Dave be deluding himself in some way, if he takes comfort in that thought? — universeness
Even if that imagery has some objective truth value to it, why is that not a cause for celebration?The wheel of progress doesn't need to try. It just keeps rolling. Anybody tries to get in its way, slow it down, change its course, gets flattened. — Vera Mont
I don't know whether he's deluding himself and don't care: whatever makes people feel good is all right with me, so long as what makes them feel good doesn't make someone else feel bad. — Vera Mont
Without Mahatma Gandhi, India would have most probably faced a civil war when the partition occurred that would have set in India back for decades. — DA671
Celebrate. Give the peons a day off. Stage a parade! I won't get in your way.Even if that imagery has some objective truth value to it, why is that not a cause for celebration? — universeness
Cripes!! Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?Why can we not be riding comfortably atop this wheel, until we die, and naturally fall of and get replaced? — universeness
The possibility of improvement does not nullify the good that does exist as a consequence of past actions. — DA671
Counterfactuals are always interesting, but they are not necessarily more desirable. — DA671
Will you join in, as you are one of the peons or would you join in and tell the peons to start a revolution, or would you not join in, in case you get reported to big brother?Celebrate. Give the peons a day off. Stage a parade! I won't get in your way. — Vera Mont
No, to me, you have been suggesting that come what may, we are unable and incapable of gaining full control over this wheel of progress, you imagineer.Cripes!! Isn't that exactly what I've been saying?
I don't want to be a leader of any movement, because crucifixion is very unpleasant. I don't want to be a flag-bearer, because so are torture and prison. I don't want to be fighter, because they tend to get hurt. I'm an attentive rider. And thus, my life and 'legacy' won't have an impact on history. And that's OK. — Vera Mont
No, to me, you have been suggesting that come what may, we are unable and incapable of gaining full control over this wheel of progress, you imagineer. — universeness
The dead have no possessions and no rights; they can be reinterpreted every two weeks, raised to beatitude or cast into villainy, relegated to footnotes or ignored.As I have suggested before, you are not able to know the impact your legacy will have. — universeness
Yes - they influenced warring, racist, slave-owning, religious crusading, imperialistic, clergy- aristocracy- and banker-ridden, nationalistic, militaristic, plague-carrying, mass-murdering, European civilization, which they then forced on other peoples around the world. And that's a good thing? OK — Vera Mont
Really? Well, they sure got bigger in the ensuing 2000 years! What is the "before" you're comparing the "since" to? And how do you measure the contribution of Socrates vs the contribution of Paul of Tarsus - or all the other men who wrote down philosophies along the way? — Vera Mont
Pessimists don't complain; they know it would be a waste of breath. They observe and comment and predict. — Vera Mont
↪Vera Mont I understand. I was only trying to stress that ideas such as a legacy and a potent positive impact can be meaningful. The negatives may not have ceased, but we could have been in a much worse place if certain people had not acted in a particular way.
Yes, and the key word there is "necessarily". They could be better (and we often tend to think so), but the opposite is not out the question either. I do think that we can reasonably conclude that one outcome was better than another. For example, having studied India's past and its continual conquests as a result of internal conflicts, I find it improbable that further fragmentation (after the loss of countless innocent lives) would have been good for humanity as a whole.
It will see definitely continue, and the extent to which we are hampered will always be altered by factors that are both within and outside our control. — DA671
Well, Athena has been typing a lot on the importance and influence of 'storytelling' in the human experience, and how it is and always has been a vital and very powerful tool in shaping the minds, and influencing the thinking of the next generation. I think that is very true, but which stories we emphasize and which fables are allowed to be peddled as true or fact, is where many of the big problems begin.
I think the story of science is 'the greatest story ever told.' I really enjoy sci-fi but we do need more sci and less fi, until enough humans become less easy to fool, all of the time. — universeness
Whatever I may leave behind is not my legacy.
It's a tiny part of their inheritance. — Vera Mont
If I could, I would send you to 1400 Europe for a three-week vacation and then ask you if you think anything has improved. — Athena
They spread their attitude and nothing good can come from that. It just is not constructive. — Athena
What you leave behind (legacy), those who remain or are yet to arrive, inherit.
You are hair splitting Vera! — universeness
Maybe, but I refuse Marx responsible for Stalin's deeds. — Vera Mont
I, too, don't hold Marx directly responsible for what Stalin did. — DA671
That's a mighty jump Vera! What did I post that suggested such linkage? — universeness
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