I remember when Ralph Nader, who I admire, cost Gore the election, and then we had the Iraq war. West needs to sit this one out.

I remember when Ralph Nader, who I admire, cost Gore the election ... — RogueAI

I don't remember this. What I do remember is that an incumbent vice-president during a time of (domestic) 'peace & prosperity' lost both the popular incumbent president's home state AND his own home state, which put in play Florida which was controlled at the time by the Bush family. Maybe – as a Green Party activist from the late 80s throughout the 90s and supporter of Nader three times for president – my recall is biased, but nonetheless Gore lost both Arkansas & Tennessee (and had refused to let Bill Clinton – unquestionably the best retail politician of his generation – campaign for him in the weeks before election day) contributed significantly more to him losing the election than a very marginal third party candidacy (IIRC, even Pat Buchanan, the far right Reform party candidate, received more votes than Gore had in some Dem precincts according to Florida election officials ... which even got chuckles from Buchanan on cable news). Blaming Gore's loss in 2000 on Nader is, it seems to me, as deluded and/or disingenuous as blaming HRC's loss in 2016 on "Bernie Bros". In both cases – losing the electors for states which, but for the Dems, wouldn't have been in play while also winning the popular vote (a feat which hadn't happened since the late 19th century) – poorly run campaigns of unlikeable candidates, aided and abetted by the DNC no less, threw away those elections.

There were a lot of factors that led to Gore losing, but had Nader not run, Gore probably would have won Florida handily.

If Gore had won his home state of Tennessee and Clinton's home state of Arkansas, the Bush machine stealing Florida wouldn't have mattered.

That doesn't change the fact that Nader was a decisive factor that led to Gore's defeat. No Nader, Gore most likely wins.

Ah, I see. You drank the DNC koolaid. Facts be damned. Gotcha. Have a good one, Rogue.

Either you want the U.S. to be a democracy in which case it's absurd to wish rival parties out of existence (this is the one place where choice and competition are actually important). Or you don't want a democracy but a dual party system that makes a minimal pretence to democracy but where corruption, laziness, and complacency are the norm. I understand in individual cases actual democracy can be inconvenient but the degree to which it is so is directly proportional to your inability to believe in it.

I understand in individual cases actual democracy can be inconvenient but the degree to which it is so is directly proportional to your inability to believe in it. — Baden

Sometimes democracy just doesn't work for the people. Democracy isn't an inherent good. It lasts as long as it provides minimal stability. Once things actually start breaking down, dictatorship is likely the next step since that's the only kind of government that can act swiftly and effectively to re-establish stability.

I understand in individual cases actual democracy can be inconvenient — Baden

And fragile.

FWIW, my two bits – political democracy without economy democracy is, in effect, 'democracy in name only' (DINO). The United States, I think, much more so than other G7/Western European welfare-states is now – has always been – a DINO wherein the broader stakeholder population is substantially disenfranchised by structural as well as partisan machinations of the shareholder (i.e. investor) class.

And Bernie hung on way too long, needlessly damaging Clinton and preventing her from pivoting to the genera election.

:roll:

Anyone watching this debate?

Jesus…

Asked to raise their hands if the candidates believe climate change is human behavior driven, no one did so…it was interrupted by Desantis, who seemed to be somewhat panicked about the question.

I see their new fossil fuel-approved slogan is “China and India need to reduce their emissions FIRST.”

I see their new fossil fuel-approved slogan is “China and India need to reduce their emissions FIRST.” — Mikie

And I bet their other slogan is "We can't reduce our emissions because we'll be reliant on Chinese technology now that they somehow got a head start in the industry"...

...Or some other reason why we shouldn't do anything. I've sort of heard them all at this point.

That’s exactly what was said as well! I think Burnham raised that point— that we get our batteries and EVs from China manufacturing. It’s just a joke.

Haley:

“Is climate change real?” she said. “Yes, it is. But if you want to go and really change the environment, then we need to start telling China and India that they have to lower their emissions.”

I think Desantis looked awful in this farce. Vivek was much more in-your-face, but really obnoxious. Christie looked OK but was loudly booed and didn’t get much time. Haley and Scott were bores. Pence did OK, for Pence. Although he’s about as exciting as cardboard.

I reckon DeSantis has no chance, that his shctick will never extend to the US at large. It goes down OK in Florida due to favourable demographics, but he's the least likeable candidate by a country mile. The kind of guy, someone said, who would confiscate the neighboring kids' ball if it was kicked onto his lawn. All up, Trump is going to manage to completely ruin the Republican nomination process, anyway. While I believe there is absolutely zero chance of him being the eventual nominee, a huge percentage of the Republican elecorate will merrily follow him off the cliff. There's only one candidate who's really going to stand to benefit, and he's not a Republican.

Yawn. Silly silly. Trump will be the candidate. If behind bars his popularity will soar.

Asked to raise their hands if the candidates believe climate change is human behavior driven — Mikie

Is that how it was phrased? Like asking, "do you believe in God?" There are other forces at work on the climate. A more delicately composed question, like,"do you think human behavior is as responsible for climate change as natural causes?" might have gotten a few positive responses. Maybe not. Going all in and declaring a non-believer a heretic worthy of belonging to a "basket of deplorables" will win few converts.

If behind bars his popularity will soar. — jgill

What does that say about the American electorate? That they want to vote for an outlaw as President?

What does a typical hero look like in the US? Dirty Harry, any spy movie with lots of collateral damage and breaking of rules, etc. Fits right in popular fiction.

Yeah it probably does come down to too much TV.


Brian Tyler Cohen’s (democrat) take - https://youtu.be/Bqj-Doe_EzU?si=F8GCZ4xFs7nCOQh9

Other lowlights
- Vivek Ramaswamy being applauded for calling climate change a hoax
- 6 out of 8 candidates saying they would support Trump (you can see de Santis glancing around to make sure others were doing it first)

When the autopsy on the death of Western democracy is written, these will be mentioned in the pathologists report.

On the plus side, at least Hayley supported Ukraine.

Jesus…

Why are they allowing this man to continue? It’s not like they’ll lose the seat. How bizarre.

In that moment, while Mitch McConnell’s dying brain struggled and failed to make sense of its present reality, all the dourness was gone from his face. All the downward gravitational pull from a lifetime in the DC swamp. All the seriousness. All the scheming. All the warmongering, tyranny and abusiveness.

In that moment of amnesiac innocence, you’d never be able to tell from looking at Mitch McConnell how many people he’s helped kill. How much suffering he’s helped cause. How much health and thriving he’s frozen out of humanity in his joyless facilitation of corporate dystopia.

All you’d see is a man. A cute, harmless, befuddled old man. All the dark, dense, contracted energy gone from his form in a sweet tender moment of intimate indivisibility.

— Caitlin Johnstone

McConnell is clearly past it. Looks like a befuddled old man when this happens. He plainly needs to retire straight away but then common sense is in very short supply in US politics nowadays.

Can we say "transient ischemic attack"? He's on his way to a major stroke.

Very likely. I mentioned previously that I witnessed something exactly the same at a relative's 90th birthday celebration. He got up to say a few words but suddenly fell silent mid-sentence and had to sit down. He was very embarrased about it and had his son contact us later to say he had suffered a 'mini-stroke'. He died not long after. But McConnell seems so enfeebled and so clearly unfit for such a strenuous position, he really should have more sense. (Although there's a bit of unease as to who will replace him, what with some of the nutjobs in the the current GOP - although John Thune doesn't look too obviously terrible, aside from the fact that he's a Republican. ;-) But at least he's been critical of the Orange Emperor.)

What does a typical hero look like in the US? Dirty Harry,. . . — Benkei

More like Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn. She's got my vote. Well, if it were possible for an Aussie- born to run for office. :smile:

Diane Feinstein is another one who should retire forthwith. I don't think Biden is holding up all that well -- he appears to be aging more rapidly lately. It's one thing to be old and doing reasonably well at home, with nothing much on one's schedule, and something else being a senator, representative, president, or Supreme Court judge.

If Republicans nominate someone like DeSantis or Haley, the debates will be brutal for Biden. But they're stuck in racial grievance mode and they want RETRIBUTION.