Considering a lot of people were misinformed about the risks of vaccination, and in some countries people were put under heavy societal pressure to take the vaccine against their will, at what point are we going to start calling this for what it is: murder. — Tzeentch

Australia has been one of the most intelligent countries in its approach to combating COVID-19. They were clever to block down their territory, and now they ban AstraZeneca. Good for Aussie people, they have a sensate government. 

On the other hand, yes, as you explained: This is a murder. Forcing people to take a vaccine that is dangerous to their health should come with some public responsibilities. Our backwards ass government showed off the amount of vaccines that have been taken by the citizens. These news make me wonder:

1) Will the governments be responsible for this negligence?
2) Will AstraZeneca pay the price for these issues?

1) Will the governments be responsible for this negligence?
2) Will AstraZeneca pay the price for these issues? — javi2541997

I suspect that the producers of the vaccines have signed agreements that make them non-liable in case the risks they knew might be present turned out to be significant.

As for the governments themselves being held responsible - a part of me doubts it, because the people responsible are in many places still in power today. Things like these have a tendency to only be resolved years, even decades after the fact.

Things like these have a tendency to only be resolved years, even decades after the fact. — Tzeentch

If at least those issues would be resolved one day... governments tend to be opaque and hide their shames under the carpet. 

What's up in Idaho?

Committee introduces bill on prohibiting ‘vaccine materials’ in food
^{— Ruth Brown · Idaho Reports · Jan 24, 2023}

Idaho bill would criminalize giving an mRNA vaccine: ‘It feels like an attack on our profession’
^{— Don Sapatkin · Managed Healthcare Executive · Mar 27, 2023}

Survey shows Idaho’s maternal health doctors are leaving the state, or soon will
^{— McKay Cunningham · Idaho Capital Sun · Apr 7, 2023}

This is a misrepresentation; Astrazeneca has been discontinued in Australia due to other vaccines being found to be more effective against new variants and also due to lack of ongoing demand.

Depending on the particular vaccine batch, individuals may have been exposed to a risk of adverse effects as high as 1/20, a Danish study concludes.

Deer spread COVID to humans multiple times, researchers find
^{— Alexander Tin · CBS · Jul 11, 2023}

DOI 10.1038 s41467-023-39782-x

The rebuttal:

The rebuttal: — Hanover

First. That was physically painful to watch. Anyone comparing the two and considering the former to be the one with the 'agenda' has clearly never met ... anyone, ever.

Second. Even if we ignore the horrific smarm which drips from the screen when watching the second video, it misses the point raised in this thread since its inception... These are scientists arguing. The paper was written by scientists, the commentary was written by scientists, they were both in a scientific journal (though only the former was peer reviewed, your commentator here "conveniently forgets to mention that").

Two groups of scientists arguing about the implications of some findings. Not one group of redneck conspiracy theorists struggling to argue against The Science™ who must be silenced by disinformation experts for the sake of humanity.

Remember, the risk of batch-related variation in adverse affects was not a discussion held in public to inform a populace in their choices. It was banned from social media. The discussion was wiped out by governments and corporations deliberately eliminating dissent.

The point is not that there's no alternative take. The point is that treating science as a battle of the exasperatedly well informed vs the stubbornly stupid is a gross misrepresentation of how it works.

can you really not see a problem with creating a system whereby a government and/or a private corporation can inject the entire population of their country with a chemical which is only intermittently batch tested? — Isaac

Me from two years ago. Called it.

The point is not that there's no alternative take. The point is that treating science as a battle of the exasperatedly well informed vs the stubbornly stupid is a gross misrepresentation of how it works. — Isaac

Aww, poetry. I'm charmed, but we can't be publicly exchanging poems, people will talk.

Oh, go on then just one...

Through every nook and every cranny
The wind blew in on poor old Granny
Around her knees, into each ear
(And up her nose as well, I fear)

All through the night the wind grew worse
It nearly made the vicar curse
The top had fallen off the steeple
Just missing him (and other people)

It blew on man, it blew on beast
It blew on nun, it blew on priest
It blew the wig off Auntie Fanny-
But most of all, it blew on Granny!

Oh yea! Let's party old school!

What to make of crap like this, coming from a prominent politician?

RFK Jr. says COVID may have been ‘ethnically targeted’ to spare Jews
^{— Jon Levine · New York Post · Jul 15, 2023}
Robert F. Kennedy Jr: COVID-19 was specifically engineered to avoid harming Jews
^{— The Jerusalem Post · Jul 15, 2023}
Robert F. Kennedy Jr. answers question about anti-vaccine views | Conversation with the Candidate
^{— WMUR-TV · Jun 23, 2023 · 7m:15s}

Here's what Kennedy himself had to say about it:




Is Kennedy secretly anti-semitic, or is this just a well-coordinated smear campaign to dispose of a threatening political opponent?


Let's be real. 'Dumpster fire' doesn't begin to describe American politics and the buffoons you people put in the White House. Think what you will about RFK, but he's a decent common sense guy, and common sense is something that is deeply threatening to the American elite.

'Dumpster fire' doesn't begin to describe American politics and the buffoons you people put in the White House. — Tzeentch

If "you people" means US voters, then, sure, a few US politicians are clowns, including RFK Jr. Clowns electing clowns? Let's get real. Democracy has room for circus politic(ian)s (as it should). And could get...interesting when voters fall for it.

Here's what Kennedy himself had to say about it: — Tzeentch

Kennedy himself! What are you thinking?

We have an editor's cut of what a newspaper journalist's summary of a reported speech possibly implied... what more evidence to you need man!

If "you people" means US voters, [...] — jorndoe

Of course that's what I mean.

[...] a few US politicians are clowns, including RFK Jr. — jorndoe

And I suppose that is your excuse for participating in said smear campaign without even bothering to see what was actually said?

Ignore the bizarre defences of Kennedy. The best thing to do is to direct people to his Wikipedia page which gives a good summary of this disturbed individual's life and has lots of links to his books, articles, and interviews where people can read firsthand his promotion of ridiculous and dangerous anti-scientific conspiracy theories, listen to his vicious attacks on Fauci and other health professionals, and generally experience the deeply twisted mind of an irrational propagandist.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Jr.

As for the latest stupidities, of course the actual quote, his exact words, are contained in the news articles as well as on the Wiki page and the excuses of his apologists are absurd (ignore them). Anyhow. it's not surprising a privileged rich dude living off and exploiting his famous heritage thinks he can get away with stuff like that when he's been getting away with it his whole life.

Imagine spinning apologetics for smear campaigns falsely accusing someone of anti-semitism.

@jorndoe I'm not going to engage with his fellow conspiracy theorists on this. But I'll add that it's a good thing that the individual in question, who is deliberately mendacious or mentally ill or both, is finished and out of the race. His latest comments (regardless of whether the intention behind them is anti-semitic) are a hardly necessary addition to prove his unfitness for any kind of public responsibility whatsoever. It's a real pity he had to ruin himself on vaccines when he actually has good positions on other stuff and that the Dems can't come up with a decent candidate to challenge Biden, who is awful.

Ignore the bizarre defences of Kennedy. — Baden

The defence is of a politics that rises above petty slandering and appeals to cliché as substitutes for substantive argument. The reason why we might have any concern about someone like Trump of DeSantis gaining support is because there's a mass of disaffected voters out there they can tap into who are (quite justifiably) pissed off at this kind of supercilious sneering. Like you don't even have to bother presenting arguments any more...

I mean, ...

attacks on Fauci — Baden

...? What is he, fucking Mohammed? Since when has the act of attacking an authority figure become something worthy of condemnation simply by its very nature?

And yes, the quotes are available. We can all read what was said and none of was "the Jews created the covid 19 virus" which is what is heavily implied by the accusations of anti-semitism.

Here from the Jerusalem Post article...

Kennedy, the nephew of former US president John F. Kennedy, claimed that COVID-19 was a bioweapon that had been specifically engineered to impact white and black people

Literally the next paragraph...

“We don’t know whether it was deliberately targeted or not but there are papers out there that show the racial or ethnic differential and impact,”

In what twisted world does "We don’t know whether it was deliberately targeted or not” become "It was specifically engineered (by Jews) to target white and black people"? He literally said the exact opposite and is quoted as doing so in the actual article.

It's pathetic journalism lazily relying on a nod and a wink toward what "we all know, don't we...?" instead of actually doing the fucking legwork.

@jorndoe tell @Baden I'm not talking to him either, but tell Baden that if he wants a candidate who's better than Biden he might want to think about not treating the electorate as if they were a bunch of schoolchildren who won't sit down and be quiet when they're told.

Anyhow. it's not surprising a privileged rich dude living off and exploiting his famous heritage thinks he can get away with stuff like that when he's been getting away with it his whole life. — Baden

There were all kinds of conspiracy theories about Bill Gates too: that he engineered the virus so he could get rich from it. People really believe that stuff. They aren't trying to be jerks. I think it's an expression of the fear of being deceived. There's a kind of horror to it. We're drawn to horror.

Yeah, 'cos rich people never engage in nefarious behaviour in order to profit from it...

Where do these people get their ideas from, eh?

Must be some pernicious mental illness or something.

Honestly, it's hilarious watching you champagne socialists tying yourselves in knots to come up with explanations for why so many people think the wealthy are conspiring against them and don't trust the major institutions... The mental gymnastics required is truly impressive.

Of, course (just a conspiracy theory from left field here), it could be because the wealthy do in fact engage in underhand, clandestine deals (conspiracies) to extract more wealth, and that institutions have in fact demonstrated themselves again, and again, to be untrustworthy pawns of corporate power...

But of course we can rule that option out because of some reasons.

We don't know whether Kennedy is deliberately exploiting conspiracy theories or not.

He says, as if he might want later to deny that he has anything against Kennedy at at all, whilst raising the spectre in everyones mind that the guy is either a nutcase or an exploiter of nutcases.

the wealthy do in fact engage in underhand, clandestine deals (conspiracies) to extract more wealth — Isaac

Isn't RFK Jr's net worth $50 million?

Isn't RFK Jr's net worth $50 million? — RogueAI

If you say so. Your point?