OK, let's imagine some horrible person who turns to Jesus moments before death and ends up in heaven, enjoying the beatific vision of God. Does heaven's lack of divine hiddenness imply the person will not be able to exercise their free will (are they now a robot?) and will not be able to grow morally? Or are they somehow magically transformed upon entrance to heaven so that they don't need to grow morally or exercise their free will?

Very interesting question. First, it's important to clarify that the initial argument about divine hiddenness was focused on its role in fostering human free will and moral growth during our earthly existence. The nature of heaven and its impact on free will and moral growth may be significantly different from the conditions on Earth. While divine hiddenness may no longer be present in heaven, it does not necessarily imply the loss of free will or the cessation of moral growth. The nature of moral growth might change in heaven, as the experiences and conditions that contribute to moral development on Earth (e.g., temptation, suffering, and moral dilemmas) may no longer be relevant. Concerning your specific question about the person who repents and turns to Jesus moments before death, Christian beliefs suggest that sincere repentance and faith in Jesus can lead to salvation and entrance into heaven, regardless of the timing of the conversion. The story of the penitent thief in the Bible (Luke 23:39-43) supports this idea, where a criminal crucified alongside Jesus sincerely repents and is promised entrance into paradise. As for the transformation upon entering heaven, many religious beliefs propose that individuals undergo a purification or cleansing of the soul, which aligns them more closely with divine values. In this context, moral growth or the exercise of free will may not be necessary in the same way as on Earth, as individuals are already in a state of spiritual perfection or harmony with the divine. In conclusion, the original argument about the significance of divine hiddenness for moral growth on Earth may not directly apply to the conditions of heaven as the nature of existence and the goals of moral development may be fundamentally different in the afterlife.

On the other hand, the common notion that God's nature is "unknowable" or in some sense "hidden" presents severe logical problems. It is obvious that if God's nature is hidden from us, then it must be impossible to prove, or even to advance any argument, that God actually exists. How can you prove that something exists, if its very existence is hidden from us? Putting it another way, if it has no properties which can be perceived by us, why would we even think it must exist?

The argument presented holds for divine absence and non-existence as well.

The argument presented holds for divine absence and non-existence as well. — Fooloso4

Exactly. Atheists are often fond of divine hiddenness.

Let's explore the complexities of divine hiddenness and its implications for human free will and moral growth together. — gevgala

I find lack of compelling reasons to believe in the proposition that god's exist and it seems to me that their absence or 'hiddenness' reinforces this.

Does heaven's lack of divine hiddenness imply the person will not be able to exercise their free will (are they now a robot?) and will not be able to grow morally? Or are they somehow magically transformed upon entrance to heaven so that they don't need to grow morally or exercise their free will? — Art48

Naturally, we can't say anything meaningful about heavens or any afterlife scenarios. Who knows what transmogrifications take place should we ascend to be with god/s? Maybe the soul sheds its flaws and becomes pure... But frankly, what is left of a human being in heaven - are there sexual organs, hair, eyes, clothes, memories....? Why would will be necessary in heaven? Do we hang around up there making decisions? Is there crime in heaven; is there an equivalent to skid row...?

Christian beliefs suggest that sincere repentance and faith in Jesus can lead to salvation and entrance into heaven, regardless of the timing of the conversion. — gevgala

But why should we be concerned about what one of many hundreds of religions or sects has claimed via interpretations of some old books? If you were born in a different country, you would be Muslim or Hindu or Bahai, or Buddhist or Jain or Jew, etc. How did you arrive at your particular account of some alleged Christian beliefs - isn't this jumping the gun?

I find lack of compelling reasons to believe in the proposition that god's exist and it seems to me that their absence or 'hiddenness' reinforces this. — Tom Storm

As Tom Waits sings:

God's away, God's away, God's away
On Business. Business.
God's away, God's away, God's away
On Business. Business.

As Tom Waits sings: — Janus

Indeed. He also sings,

Don't you know there ain't no devil there's just god when he's drunk

Of course we don't want to distract this thread with disproportionate atheism.

Don't you know there ain't no devil there's just god when he's drunk — Tom Storm

:lol:

it's important to distinguish "divine hiddenness" from "divine nothingness" or "nothing divine".

Hiddenness suggests an ability to be revealed.
Divine Nothingness suggests an impossibility to be revealed/found.

So if divine hiddenness exists, then the ability to seek that which is hidden also exists.

Christian beliefs suggest that sincere repentance and faith in Jesus can lead to salvation and entrance into heaven, regardless of the timing of the conversion. — gevgala

Is it the "sincere repentance and faith" or the "in Jesus" which saves? And what is heaven...the eternal moment in the here and now, or some unknowable realm in the hereafter?

The problem for me is this OP hinges on a specific interpretation of one particular account of god and the afterlife. It's a fairly narrow frame in the scheme of human thought and theology and the case has not yet been made that there are gods, afterlives, heavens, free wills or inerrant, (interpretation free) scriptures... So how can we end up exploring what something is like when the thing itself is unknown, hidden/absent and perhaps unknowable?

This is incidental to your project and forgive my atheist lens. Seems to me you are trying to jump to premature conclusions. You are trying to second guess a moral system and rationale for a religion and a version of a god you haven't established as true yet. What you are likely to have at present is a subjective interpretation of one type of organized religion with some general accounts of heaven, free will and the nature of the divine. How does this provide you with foundational justification to make any overarching claims about how any of this functions in reality?

Very interesting question. First, it's important to clarify that the initial argument about divine hiddenness was focused on its role in fostering human free will and moral growth during our earthly existence. The nature of heaven and its impact on free will and moral growth may be significantly different from the conditions on Earth. While divine hiddenness may no longer be present in heaven, it does not necessarily imply the loss of free will or the cessation of moral growth. — gevgala

I took your initial assertion as God is hidden to protect our free will. Now, you seem to be saying that ON EARTH God is hidden to protect our free will but things may be different in heaven. How is this not special pleading? If God is blatantly obvious in heaven but we nonetheless have free will in heaven, then free will and knowledge of God CAN co-exist.

Besides, didn't Adam and Eve know God existed? Did they have free will? And then there's God appearing to Moses, talking to Abraham, Moses, Elijah, etc. Did all those people lose their free will after God spoke to them?

4. If human beings need the freedom to make morally good and morally bad decisions, then they must be allowed to exercise their free will without constant divine scrutiny. — gevgala

What's your support for this premise? Why should we think free will is impeded by constant divine scrutiny? Is that like saying being aware the police exist impedes your free will about whether to commit crimes or not? Since most classical monotheists believe God has the attributes of omniscience and omnipresence, we'd be under constant divine scrutiny whether we are aware of it or not. So, maybe you should rephrase this premise to be "without the appearance of divine scrutiny." The more I think about it, the appearance of constant divine scrutiny would not impede our freedom to make morally good decisions -- only morally bad decisions. But isn't this a net good result?

...divine hiddenness serves a valuable purpose by allowing humans to exercise their free will and engage in meaningful moral growth. — gevgala

Indeed a very fascinating idea :halo:

I believe in the illusion of freewill which within our highly complex reality, affords us happiness.

As far as I know, God was not hidden from Adam and Eve and God was not hidden from Satan or any of the fallen angels.

The question of divine hiddenness has long been a subject of debate in the philosophy of religion. In this post, I will present an argument in support of the idea that divine hiddenness serves a valuable purpose by allowing humans to exercise their free will and engage in meaningful moral growth. — gevgala

In the context of Christianity, Divine Hiddenness doesn't make sense. God is recorded in the Bible as directly intervening in human affairs, and even walking among men. Moreover, evidence for modern divine apparitions is entirely hearsay, no videos posted on YouTube. However, from a Cosmological perspective, a Creation (Big Bang) without a Creator, also doesn't make sense. So, the "hiddenness" of a creator for the creation is a valid point of philosophical curiosity, regardless of its religious implications.

That's why I prefer to look at the world as-if it's a mathematical computer program/simulation, as postulated by Tegmark, Bostrom, et al*1. In SimWorld games for example, the appearance of the all-powerful Programmer inside the game might be viewed as dictatorial, in the sense of a god-complex. Especially, if the point of the game is to allow as much freedom as feasible for the avatars to develop in creative directions. Simulation games are exercises in creativity, and moral rules are necessity to eliminate corruption that would muck-up the works. In the real world, those rules are not engraved in stone, but must be inferred from experience with actions & consequences.

I'm not asserting that the Cosmos is actually a simulation game; it's just an analogy. If the world functions like a computer program though, then we can plausibly assume that there must be a Prime Programmer to create the algorithms that mathematically define the task to be computed. And we can ignore the astronomical odds against such a complex & constructive system arising by pure Accident (acausal) --- complete with malleable Matter, causal Energy, & directional Laws. So conjectures about a logically necessary First Cause are philosophically legitimate.

Regarding the necessity of Free Choice for "moral growth", I must agree. In Christian theology though, Morality has two different definitions : Man-to-Man or Man-to-God relationships. "Do unto others" is a practical moral guideline, but "do unto God" is impractical if God is missing, and nonsensical if God is absent. So, the only "doing" that would matter to an ego-centric but disembodied Creator is an act of Faith. Therefore, I prefer to assume that the First Cause was not an emotion-driven anthro-morphic Creator, but more like a purpose-motivated Rational Principle, such as Plato's Logos*2. The Programmer's presence in the program is in the structural organization (the algorithms), not in the objects produced within the system.

PS___I'm posting these comments, not to convince anyone, but merely for the exercise of postulating an alternative explanation for the paradox of a world with goal-oriented creatures, but without an intentional creator. Morality seems to require a Superego to overrule the immoral motives of Ego & Id. And Cosmic evolution requires inherent laws to limit de-constructive or counter-productive interactions. Nature has freedom within limits.


*1. Cosmos as Simulation :
This leads to the extraordinary possibility that our entire Universe might in fact be a computer simulation. The idea is not that new. In 1989, the legendary physicist, John Archibald Wheeler, suggested that the Universe is fundamentally mathematical and it can be seen as emerging from information.
https://www.sciencealert.com/expert-proposes-a-method-for-telling-if-we-all-live-in-a-computer-program

*2. Logos :
In Enformationism, it is the driving force of Evolution, Logos is the cause of all organization, and of all meaningful patterns in the world. It’s not a physical force though, but a metaphysical (perhaps mathematical) cause that can only be perceived by Reason, not senses or instruments.
https://blog-glossary.enformationism.info/page14.html
Note -- Logical Intention is not emotional, but purely rational. So, the presumptive Programmer would be something like the logic-driven alien, Mr. Spock of Star Trek fame; except without the irrational human element. A Superego without Ego or Id.

As far as I know, God was not hidden from Adam and Eve and God was not hidden from Satan or any of the fallen angels. — Walter

I do not believe the op is based specifically on the bible! :smile:

In this post, I will present an argument in support of the idea that divine hiddenness serves a valuable purpose by allowing humans to exercise their free will and engage in meaningful moral growth. — gevgala

It all hinges on a flimsy string of 'if's.
You did not establish
- the purpose or benefit of moral growth; why humans need it or should want it
- why humans are morally smaller before they made good and bad decisions than after; or, indeed, how the moral growth is accomplished through good and bad decisions.
- how moral size is measured, how the measurement is carried out, and whether it has a quantifiable goal - how big is moral enough
- where is the moral code in which they are judged
- whether God watches from a divine duck-blind or is actually absent
- how hiddenness is maintained in the presence of aggressively organized religions that insist on God's omnipresence and omniscience

That last question is the crucial one. If God is anything like the ones depicted in the Judeo-Christo-Islamic doctrines, and if your proposition is correct, free will becomes impossible, as does moral growth.

Personally, I'm picturing a parent of small children who teaches them correct behaviour by watching through a one-way mirror as they kill one another.

If God is anything like the ones depicted in the Judeo-Christo-Islamic doctrines, and if your proposition is correct, free will becomes impossible, as does moral growth.

Personally, I'm picturing a parent of small children who teaches them correct behaviour by watching through a one-way mirror as they kill one another. — Vera Mont

:100: :lol: