Pretty sure we all have moments like this :D Such is life. Some days rainbows and unicorns, others gloom and doom or emptiness.

The meaning of meaning is what I mean it to be once I decide what meaning means in any given moment. Most if the time now I do not bother with such temporally inconsistent rhythms and just laugh, smile or mock reality and its absurdism.

We all die and that is strangely satisfying for me :)

We all die and that is strangely satisfying for me :) — I like sushi

Interesting way of thinking. The fact that death is something that will happen for granted, makes me feel more motivated. Even death has a bit of romantic vibes. If we were all immortal, we wouldn't be motivated to do anything at all. :chin:

Even death has a bit of romantic vibes. — javi2541997

"Death does not concern us, because while we exist death is not present, and when death is present we no longer exist.” - Epicurus :cool:

What does life mean? That something is not inanimate or dead. — Vera Mont

I'm not remotely close to having any expertise in linguistics, semiotics (a word I never heard untill I read it here a cooker months ago), meaning, or whatever. I don't even know what topic this falls under. But this just doesn't seem right to me. There are not characteristics of the inanimate that life lacks. I would think it's the other way around. The characteristics of life are absent in the inanimate. Inanimate is not animate.

Similar with dead, but a couple of differences. First, inanimate came before life. Everything was inanimate until life showed up. Although there would have been no concept of "inanimate" before there was life. (Of course, there was nobody around to lable things.) But dead came after life. Second, while dead things are inanimate, most inanimate things are not dead. Nagel says "...the appearance of life from from dead matter..." I wouldn't say something is "dead matter" unless I was talking about the remains of a plant or animal.

Does a lion search for a meaning to his life? Does a dolphin? Why should they? They are themselves, integral and complete, in harmony with their environment.
Only man has been diminished in his own eyes; made to feel insignificant and flawed. Told by 500 generations of prophets and philosophers that he is wanting, fallen short, fallen from a loftier position, and that the only way he can redeem himself is by dedicating his life to something greater than himself: a god, a liege lord, an empire, a noble cause, a brotherhood of warriors, monks or mobsters. His own little life is of no consequence: it is a conveyance merely, like a deed of sale or a summons, disposable once it's served purpose. — Vera Mont

Wow, I view the idea of meaning in an extremely different way. Everything (we are aware of) in the universe exists simply as part of the cycle. Only we are above that. Only we get to have meaning, if we choose to.

Everything (we are aware of) in the universe exists simply as part of the cycle. Only we are above that. — Patterner

How did you climb above the universe?

Everything (we are aware of) in the universe exists simply as part of the cycle. Only we are above that.
— Patterner

How did you climb above the universe? — Vera Mont

The appearance of our consciousness and intelligence put us there. They make us the only known thing that conceives of these ideas. Someone conceived of the concept of meaning beyond the cycle of life and death. Now we can each decide the meaning for our lives, if we choose to. To our knowledge, nothing other than humans can do that.

The appearance of our consciousness and intelligence put us there. They make us the only known thing that conceives of these ideas. Someone conceived of the concept of meaning beyond the cycle of life and death. Now we can each decide the meaning for our lives, if we choose to. To our knowledge, nothing other than humans can do that. — Patterner

Ah. So, now that you're omniscient, your life isn't enough; it needs to contain some message. OK.

A bizarre TPF member, this Niki Wonoto. Perusing the profile page, 15 threads over the past 4 years and from the random 4 I checked, not one response, just posts a thread opening and that's it. Is there no Sherlock style mod who cares to comment? @Mikie?

I saw that too. I think at this point there's some cause for concern, given there's almost no engagement once a post is made. I'll raise the issue with other mods.

Anybody/thing capable of understanding the concept is free to choose the meaning of their own life. — Patterner

i'm not sure if one's life meaning can necessarily be chosen. Do we really have that much agency? Many meanings we might choose will turn out to be false, and reveal themselves as such with hollowness and dissatisfaction. I would say, it must be discovered.

Some people will never discover theirs, or even may not have any.

Yeah, probably a good idea. Looking at all the thread titles, I began to wonder, is this person getting some kind of kick out of simply trying to spread notions that life is not worth living? In the hope of pushing some vulnerable readers further into despair? I hope I am wrong but ........

Does a lion search for a meaning to his life? Does a dolphin? Why should they? — Vera Mont

They lack the conceptual capacity. Only man is so blessed and cursed, afawk, with the ability to add concepts onto what is.

I began to wonder, is this person getting some kind of kick out of simply trying to spread notions that life is not worth living? — universeness

Almost certainly they are just depressed.

Anybody/thing capable of understanding the concept is free to choose the meaning of their own life.
— Patterner

i'm not sure if one's life meaning can necessarily be chosen. Do we really have that much agency? Many meanings we might choose will turn out to be false, and reveal themselves as such with hollowness and dissatisfaction. I would say, it must be discovered.

Some people will never discover theirs, or even may not have any. — hypericin

I can see the possibility of choosing badly. Meaning regretting your choice. Hopefully, you aren't on your deathbed when this regret hits you. If you're not, then you can choose another meaning. You might make a choice you're happier with, having learned from your mistake.

I can also see people never choosing any meaning. Heck, some never consider the topic at all.

I think I understand what you mean by it must be discovered. But it still must be chosen, don't you think? A person with extraordinary talent for healing might choose that as the meaning of their life. But they might choose music, despite what seems to be obvious to everyone else. Or they might become a doctor, but consider being a parent the meaning of their life.

But it still must be chosen, don't you think? — Patterner

Yes, I think so. My point is that the act of choosing in itself is not enough. What is chosen must stand in some "meaningful" relationship to oneself, that I can't elucidate right now.

There are so many meanings, that more than merely "regretting the choice", are objectively wrong choices, in that they don't stand in this (for now, mystery) relationship with the chooser. For instance, the pursuit of money or fame cannot be the meaning of your life, no matter how earnestly chosen, if you are unfulfilled and haunted by precisely the thought that your life is meaningless.

Today I am walking around a local lake. This seems to be an objectively meaningless activity, after all I end up where I started. Yet the moments of the walk are filled with meaning, meaning that I choose, though not necessarily freely, and at the end I will not be quite the same person that started the walk.

You can also walk around the exact same lake, bored, thinking of nothing except gripes and dissatisfactions, and at the end think, "what a waste of time, I'm never doing that again!". I've done so as well.

Life is like a walk around a lake. We all end up where we begin: the ground. Yet, the moments in between may have meaning, and you might even make a journey worth repeating. Or, you might not.

But it still must be chosen, don't you think?
— Patterner


Yes, I think so. My point is that the act of choosing in itself is not enough. What is chosen must stand in some "meaningful" relationship to oneself, that I can't elucidate right now.

There are so many meanings, that more than merely "regretting the choice", are objectively wrong choices, in that they don't stand in this (for now, mystery) relationship with the chooser. For instance, the pursuit of money or fame cannot be the meaning of your life, no matter how earnestly chosen, if you are unfulfilled and haunted by precisely the thought that your life is meaningless. — hypericin

Indeed. Some might come to realize their decision was not too their liking. Or they might think it's shallow. Or whatever. And they might think more on it, and learn the kind of thing that is needed.

Some might come to think their lives don't need this kind of meaning.

The form, in general, is that X means Y to Z.

but I suspect that when you say 'life', you are speaking personally, such that your formula is:– niki wonoto means "nothing" to @niki wonoto. — unenlightened

I would suggest that his formula is "@niki wonoto means nothing", and that the form of meaning is X means Y. The delusion that meaning, if it is to be meaningful at all, must lie latent in the thing itself, the X instead of the Z.

But I think your post captures another delusion, that meaning of your life comes from others, not yourself. Sure, you can devote your life to others, even others devoted to you. But your meaning is not contingent on others. This is the social butterfly's view on life, who surrounds themselves with as many friends as possible. Do social butterflies live especially meaningful lives? This has not been my impression.

They lack the conceptual capacity. Only man is so blessed and cursed, afawk, with the ability to add concepts onto what is. — hypericin

Only man is cursed with the capacity to consider himself less significant than he actually is.

Maybe there is a crises in meaningfulness among the young - and the middle aged. Today's Ann Landers column includes a person who at the age of forty, asks "What will I be when I grow up?" Living at a relative's home, he hasn't been forced to make his way in the world, and doing so, perhaps find meaning.

- Very interesting. This seems to be common. A generation without children, without religion, without patriotism, etc. There is nothing to make a claim on them.

There is nothing to make a claim on them. — Leontiskos

Insufficient external validation renders life meaningless?

I'm not sure how you could construe "X making a claim on Joe," as, "Joe receiving external validation." Solipsism renders life meaningless.

Uh, sorry. I guess, then, I should have said the lack of external demand makes life meaningless.
Somehow that doesn't improve the situation that life has no meaning unless it's given up to something other than itself.

Becoming part of a larger whole really does confer meaning. I should think this is empirically demonstrable. I see you've given some rhetorical protestations to this idea in the thread. Do you have more than rhetoric?

You have nailed it.

A pure provocateur — universeness

A pointless provocateur and a nihilist poseur--a role that is altogether too easy take up. It probably seems cool to a certain lazy type, because if everything is meaningless and nothing matters, there's never a reason to let others make any demands of us, or rouse one's self into action which might be slightly tiring as well as meaningless. One just goes around whining about the meaningless of life. Talk about tiresome!

I say hit the delete button.

There is meaning aplenty to be had; life just doesn't hand it to us on a silver platter.

Do you have more than rhetoric? — Leontiskos

No, I understand that people believe this. I just find it sad that they don't consider life itself valuable enough not to require a meaning added to it. Sad, and frightening.

No — Vera Mont

Aye.

Aye. — Leontiskos

Aye. And do we also understand that everyone's rhetoric is meaningful, even though they have different notions of 'meaning' or even, gods help us, 'meaningfulness' ?

- Good posts. :up: