Indeed you might, and a very important question it is.

I have another thing I wonder about. Many, many, many christians expect Christ to return now within the next 30 years or so. They argue it from this perspective: Adam is supposed to have been created around 3950 years before the birth of Christ, and therefore around 4000 before his death. Abraham is supposed to have lived 2000 years after Adam and 2000 before Jesus. Now it is almost 2000 since Christ died on the cross. 2000+2000+2000=6000. God created the world in 6 days. They claim that this is the proof that when it was 6000 since Adam was created and 2000 since Christ died, he will return.

What do you guys think about this? Probable or superstitious?

(Y) Excellent, thank you. Yes, The Brothers Karamozov is his masterpiece. Have you seen the 1958 film? Highly abridged from the novel of course, but full of its spirit, character, music, and tensions. Movies like that and Becket, On the Waterfront, Mutiny on the Bounty(all versions), Spartacus, Ben-Hur, A Lion in Winter, Billy Budd, and other various ones like V For Vendetta, Contact, The Last Unicorn, Schindlers List, Koyanisqattsi, The Lord of the Rings, Pink Floyd's The Wall, and The Song Remains the Same really helped me through the existential crisis, philosophical and spiritual questions, and irrational guilt. It is better now, but of course questions remain. Such is life. But it feels like sailing the ocean rather than drowning in it. May you find the same in your own way.

About the self, this seems to be a helpful quote from Dogen:
Studying the Buddha way is studying oneself. Studying oneself is forgetting oneself. Forgetting oneself is being enlightened by all things. Being enlightened by all things is to shed the body-mind of oneself, and those of others. No trace of enlightenment remains, and this traceless enlightenment continues endlessly.

Honestly, my interpretation of Job is that God says "You are right". Right in what? That suffering has NO meaning. — Beebert

Sorry, but have you actually read Job? I know many people on the internet say that, but have you read the actual text?

1 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom
or gives the rooster understanding?
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
40 The Lord said to Job:

2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the Lord:

4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:

7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
41 “Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud." — Book of Job 38-41

The impression I get from this answer is quite different. God doesn't tell Job that he is right, and suffering has no meaning. God tells Job that his entire protestation is vain and meaningless, since Job cannot possibly hope to comprehend God, and he has no right at all to tell God what is good and what is bad. Job must just play his role - he has no capacity to raise himself above God and dare to question God. God is Creator, He alone decides what is Right and Good. God shames Job by testing his knowledge, and showing how puny and insignificant it is - how insignificant Job ultimately is. And Job understands it - he understands that he must have faith in God, because God knows better than he himself knows what is good.

God really says is: "You sit there miserable because of your own suffering? Look around you. I screwed everything up!". — Beebert

I don't see this in the text. On the contrary, God says He didn't screw anything up.

God wanted me to exist. Why? — Beebert

I don't know, but I'm sure He must have a purpose.

Suicide is condemned in christianity(perhaps not in orthodoxy) as the worst of all sins. That too I can not accept. — Beebert

Why can't you accept it? And it's not condemned as the worst of sins, it's just a sin. Suicide isn't the unforgiveable sin.

The sheperd of Hermas was even considered as canonical scripture by many of the church fathers, such as Irenaeus and Origen. It is contained within The Apostolic Fathers, so it has mighty importance. — Beebert

Bullshit. One Church father considering something canonical doesn't mean it really is. There's a reason why it's not in the Bible. Synods and Ecumenical Councils decide such matters, not lonely church fathers...

Because in Scripture I find 25 places that speaks about election, and 5-6 places that talks about predestination. I also find a horrifying text from Paul in Romans 9 where he talks about how God creates some people in order to destroy them. And in Hebrews I find the same teaching as in the Sheperd of Hermas; those who fall away can never be forgiven, even if they want to. — Beebert

Please quote specific passages which disturb you. You don't have to quote 25. Give me 5 of the most disturbing ones according to you.

Well, then it seems like I have committed it. — Beebert

Impossible, if you had committed it, you wouldn't be agonising over it. People who commit the unforgiveable sin don't commit it only with their minds, but rather with their HEARTS - they hate God and goodness so much that they perceive evil to be good, and good to be evil. It's not an easy thing to do. You will never accidentally commit this sin - there is no such thing.

How does that corresponds to scriptural words such as "punishment", "wrath", "vengeance", "retribution" etc? — Beebert

Perfectly! People who hate God will experience it as "wrath", "vengeance", etc.

"Love others and I will love you. Believe in Christ's sacrifice, and I will love you wretched sinner. Not because I love you really, but because I love my son. Now. Go love all your neighbours and enemies. If you don't I will cast you in that lake of fire along with your enemies." — Beebert

That's just false. Jesus Christ wouldn't have accepted to come to Earth, be mocked, humiliated, and killed by undeserving twats if He didn't love us.

Even if you would experience God as Satan, why can't you be forgiven? — Beebert

You can be forgiven, if you WANT to be forgiven, but if you get to that stage, then you don't want to be forgiven anymore.

Nothing is supposed to be impossible with God. — Beebert

Nothing is impossible for God, that's absolutely true, however God doesn't want to break you free will - that's His decision. If you freely decide that you prefer hell to heaven, that's where you shall go! God will not stop you.

"Shall never be forgiven" it says. Why — Beebert

Give me the full quote with context please.

Nothing in my life has made me so miserable and suicidal as the belief in the Christian God. — Beebert

Yes, that's because you have the wrong idea of God. God doesn't want to punish you, or anyone. The history of man is the history of the FLIGHT FROM GOD - man is desperately running away from God, and God is in full pursuit of man because He loves him. It's not God that punishes man, but rather man that punishes himself.

You said most christians would NOT agree that non-christians go to hell? hmm... That is not what I have seen. — Beebert

Then they are wrong. The Scriptures do not say that men have the authority or the wisdom to decide or state with certainty who goes to hell and who doesn't. It seems you want to make yourself God and have authority over what happens - you think your intellect is sufficiently powerful to know these things - that's absolute foolishness. Know your own finitude!

If I walk on the street thinking that the majority of the people there will go to hell (The gate is narrow as Christ says), then I get a panic attack. — Beebert

Yeah, well why do you think that? Do you think you're capable to decipher what is in all those people's hearts, and see whether they will go to heaven or hell? Only God knows such matters.

I was at a psychiatric hospital for a month because of this horrendous belief. It drove me to madness. I can't take it anymore. Show me the goodness of christianity. I can't find it anymore. — Beebert

You have the wrong belief. You believe God wants to punish you and mankind for our sins. You believe God had to sacrifice His Son, otherwise He could not forgive you, unless there was blood, because He is a Just God. Perhaps Scripture should then have said that God is Justice. But it didn't - it said God is Love. God's Love and Mercy are greater than His Justice. Jesus Christ died for your sins so that you could be purified and join God in union with Him. Jesus's death and Resurrection was performed in order to make man divine.

Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, "I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High." ... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality — Irenaeus

For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. — St. Athanasius

[T]he Word of God became man, that thou mayest learn from man how man may become God — Clement of Alexandria

Since the God who was manifested infused Himself into perishable humanity for this purpose, viz. that by this communion with Deity mankind might at the same time be deified, for this end it is that, by dispensation of His grace, He disseminated Himself in every believer — St. Gregory of Nyssa

A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the Incarnation of God, which makes man God to the same degree as God Himself became man ... . Let us become the image of the one whole God, bearing nothing earthly in ourselves, so that we may consort with God and become gods, receiving from God our existence as gods. For it is clear that He Who became man without sin will divinize human nature without changing it into the Divine Nature, and will raise it up for His Own sake to the same degree as He lowered Himself for man's sake. This is what St[.] Paul teaches mystically when he says, '[]that in the ages to come he might display the overflowing richness of His grace' — St. Maximus the Confessor

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinization_(Christian)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosis_(Eastern_Christian_theology)
For more.

Regarding if I have the wisdom to say whether what God did was good or bad: He has given me the capacity to see what I see. And the conclusions I make of what he has revealed to me is that the world is a catastrophic mess. — Beebert

Yes, that is indeed what you think. But the capacities you have are minuscule and insignificant. How dare you pretend to know that it is catastrophic? What is 1000 years to God? Nothing. You don't even know what will happen tomorrow, much less 10,000 years from now. Your intellectual powers should tell you first and foremost that they are weak and incapable to see very far.

Is Jehovah in the old testament the God of Jesus? Of course he is — Beebert

Yes, He absolutely is.

Do you find the God who slaughtered the Amalekites, who wanted to stone homosexuals and women who had lost their virginity before their wedding to be Love? — Beebert

Yes, I actually do. And by the way, these are mostly misrepresentations. Women caught in adultery were meant to be stoned ALONG WITH THE MAN only if there were witnesses to the act itself. This is part of the Covenant made with the Jewish people, and it wasn't meant to be eternal - these were rules that were to be applied only during that time, which was a very difficult time for the Jewish people. You should read this book:

https://www.amazon.com/God-Behaving-Badly-Testament-Sexist/dp/0830838260

By the way, what you're spouting off isn't even Christianity, it's tradition. You're encountering the tradition of men, not actual Apostolic Tradition, the writings of the Saints, and Scripture. Many of the things most people think they know about Christianity are actually completely false.

Did you read the fine print of what Wayfarer was describing as "myth" here? — Noble Dust

Which "fine print" are you talking about? :s

They claim that this is the proof that when it was 6000 since Adam was created and 2000 since Christ died, he will return. — Beebert

They are stupid, and they should be ashamed of themselves if you want to know the truth. They think they can know the mind of God :s Give me a break.

One can speculate that such might be the case, but to say so definitely is the sign of stupidity. And I for one don't think such is the case - there is nothing in the Bible to showcase this.

Of course I have read Job. I ask you to try to get deeper in to the psychology of the text and not just read it on the surface of its plane meaning sensu proprio. Read the ending of Job. God then turns to the other friends and blames them for having said wrong things about him while Job was telling the truth. That is what he said. I interpret that as meaning "Suffering has no meaning". Or perhaps you and I understand it completely different, but to me it is seems quite obvious.

I like you view on christianity I must say, and would like very much if you told me more about it. It seems interesting. I hope you are right that what I reject is the tradition of men and that most people don't know about true christianity...

Passages that disturbe me? All the passages in the gospels that speak about the unforgivable sin. I think it is in either Mark 3 or Matthew 12 that Jesus says that he who blasphemes the spirit never has forgiveness/shall never be forgiven but is guilty of an eternal sin.

I also have problems with ALL the passages that speak about election. There are plenty in the gospels. Others than that, out of the top of my head, I have problems with Romans 8 and 9. And Hebrews 6, 10 and 12 or 13.

They are stupid, and they should be ashamed of themselves if you want to know the truth. They think they can know the mind of God :s Give me a break.

One can speculate that such might be the case, but to say so definitely is the sign of — Agustino

Thanks. I think I have heard of too many fundamentalists. They most be a really serious problem for christianity...

Passages that disturbe me? All the passages in the gospels that speak about the unforgivable sin. I think it is in either Mark 3 or Matthew 12 that Jesus says that he who blasphemes the spirit never has forgiveness/shall never be forgiven but is guilty of an eternal sin. — Beebert

Well we've already gone over that, and I explained what the Unforgiveable Sin is, and also why it is unforgiveable. It is not because God will not forgive it, but rather because the person in question does not want to be forgiven, and God will respect their free will.

I also have problems with ALL the passages that speak about election. There are plenty in the gospels. Others than that, out of the top of my head, I have problems with Romans 8 and 9. And Hebrews 6, 10 and 12 or 13. — Beebert

Okay, please take the time to quote specific instances. Not just Hebrews 6, I want the verses you're referring to.

Of course I have read Job. I ask you to try to get deeper in to the psychology of the text and not just read it on the surface of its plane meaning sensu proprio. Read the ending of Job. God then turns to the other friends and blames them for having said wrong things about him while Job was telling the truth. That is what he said. I interpret that as meaning "Suffering has no meaning". Or perhaps you and I understand it completely different, but to me it is seems quite obvious. — Beebert

I view God's rebukes in the same light - he is rebuking people who think they know what they're talking about instead of being humble and admit to human limitations.

Hebrews 6:4-6

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29:

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Romans 8: 28-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Matthew 13:42

And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

John 6:44

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:
It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”
26 and,

“In the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘children of the living God.’”[j]
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]
29 It is just as Isaiah said previously:

“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]
Israel’s Unbelief
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

There are a few passages. Then there are plenty in the book of revelation and also some others in Matthew, John and Luke.

Read this and tell me, is it superstition and stupidity? It seems so to me, but I would like to know:

"The event that we cannot know when it will happen, is the Lords terrible Day of wrath, the next prophesied event to happen. Several years later, the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign, will be known to the day, as it will be exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated.
I have posted the timeline below twice before, no one can refute it.
7000 years from the Creation to the Completion of Mankind:

Genesis 1:27 Adam was created in 3970.5 BCE

Gen 5:3 Seth +130, Gen 5:6 Enoch +105, Gen 5:9 Kenan +90, Gen 5:12 Mahalalel +70, Gen 5:15 Jared +65, Gen 5:18 Enoch +162, Gen 5:21 Methuselah +65, Gen 5:25 Lamech +187, Gen 5:28 Noah+182, Gen 6:7 The Flood came when Noah was +600, Gen 11:10
Our year 2314.5 BCE

Arpachshad +2 - born to Shem after the flood. Gen 11:12 Selah +35, Gen 11:14 Heber +30, Gen 11:16 Peleg +34, Gen 11:18 Reu +30, Gen 11:20 Serug +32, Gen 11:22 Nahor +30 , Gen 11:24 Terah +29, Gen 11:26 Abram +70, Abram was +52 when God called him and they left Ur. Our year 1970.5 BCE He lived in Haran for 23 years, then went to Canaan at age 75. Genesis 12:4
Total years so far = 2000

Gen 17:1, Abraham was 99 when the Covenant was made with God. +47 Genesis 17:1-8

Galatians 3:17 Paul states that the Law was given +430 after the Covenant. Total years elapsed until the Exodus – 2477, in our year 1493.5 BCE. [Many ancient records say Comet Typhon passed close the earth at that time. It was the cause of many of the disasters in Egypt.]

1 Kings 6:1 The Temple construction starts, in the 4th year of King Solomon +480 since the Torah was given at the Exodus.. 1 Kings 11:42 Solomon 40 minus 4 = +36, 1 Kings 14:21 Rehoboam +17, 1 Kings 15:2 Abijah +3, 2 Chron 16:13 Asa +41, 1 Kings 22:42 Jehoshaphat +25, 2 Kings 8:17 Jehoram +8, 2 Kings 8:26 Ahaziah +1, 2 Kings 11:1-3 Athaliah +6, 2 Kings 12:1-3 Joash +40, 2 Kings 14:1-2 Amaziah +29, 2 Kings 15:1-2 Azariah +52, 2 Kings 15:32 Jotham +16, 2 Kings 16:1-2 Ahaz +16, 2 Kings 18:1-2 Hezekiah +29, 2 Kings 21:1 Manasseh +55, 2 Kings 21:19 Amon +2, 2 Kings 22:1-2 Josiah +31, 2 Kings 22:31 Jehoahaz +3mths, 2 Kings 23:31 Jehoiakim +11, 2 Kings 24:8 Jehoichin +3mths, 2 Kings 24:18 Zedekiah +11, who ruled until the Babylonian captivity in our year 586 BCE.
Total elapsed years to the first exile of Judah = 3386.5

586 BCE + 613.5 years + 2 comes to 29.5 CE, the date of Jesus’ baptism. Luke 3:1 Plus 2 to include the total number of elapsed years, as our calendar system counts years from their commencement.

3386.5 + 613.5 = 4000 years.

January 2017 CE - 29.5 CE = 1987.5 years since the commencement of Jesus’ Ministry.

1987.5 + 4000 = 5987.5 years, is where we are now. 5987.5 + 12.5 = 6000 years

2017 CE + 12.5 = 2029.5 CE Exactly 2000 years to the end of the present Church age. 4000 since Abraham, 6000 since Adam, next comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus.

7000 years is God’s decreed time for mankind.
Those who have been found worthy will go into eternity with God. Revelation 22:1-5"

I think Job is a bit overrated. It's all too often the only go-to Christians have for defending their faith, which becomes rather tedious because the moral of the story amounts to trusting in mystery, which is about as unsubstantial and underwhelming as you can get.

which is about as unsubstantial and underwhelming as you can get — Heister Eggcart

For what reason it is unsubstantial and underwhelming?

the moral of the story amounts to trusting in mystery, which is about as unsubstantial and underwhelming as you can get. — Heister Eggcart

No, the moral of the story actually amounts to something different. That Job is puny and insignificant, and while he's yelling at God, he doesn't understand this. He lifts himself above God thinking that he knows enough to pronounce judgement on God and his creation. This awareness of one's finitude, and more importantly that one doesn't deserve anything to begin with (so what right does Job even have to demand something of the Creator?). The right attitude in front of these limitations is faith - because God knows what is best better than you, with your limited faculties and intelligence do.

I will answer your post tomorrow.

God never discloses to Job why shit hits the fan, only demanding that faith in him will ensure that good will come about only after shit hits the fan. Of course Job isn't in a position to doubt God or be in a position of bargaining seeing as he had already lost everything and hit rock bottom for reasons unknown to him. The story reminds me of the old Nonstampcollector videos where, if I remember correctly, Jesus (God) takes a baseball bat to someone's leg and breaks it, and God will only fix it if that person apologizes for God breaking his leg.

Job is a fine story up until you realize there's no tangible justification on God's part for condemning Job in the first place.

No, the moral of the story actually amounts to something different. That Job is puny and insignificant, and while he's yelling at God, he doesn't understand this. He lifts himself above God thinking that he knows enough to pronounce judgement on God and his creation. This awareness of one's finitude, and more importantly that one doesn't deserve anything to begin with (so what right does Job even have to demand something of the Creator?). — Agustino

The God of Job has the sort of personality and communication with its creations that isn't comparable to Jobs like you and me. Again, the circular "logic" here is that one must first have faith in God's existence in order then to have faith in God's will, which really makes no sense at all.

I generally find it hard to appreciate St Paul. I like some parts of his writings, but sometimes wonder if he did a lot of harm to christianity by starting to theologize. You can smell the creation of dogmas and doctrines that will do a lot of harm in his letters. The spring which flows quietly and transparently through the Gospels seems to have dirt on it in Paul’s Epistles. Or, that is how it seems to me. It is probably my own impurity which sees faults in it, so that I don't see clearly. But to me it’s as if I saw human passion in these epistles that resembles pride and anger, which does not agree with the humility and simplicity of the Gospels. It seems to me like I here in the epistles find an emphasis on Paul's own person behind all his praising of Christ, and even as a religious act, which is foreign to the Gospel. In the Gospels – so it seems to me – everything is less pretentious, humbler, simpler. There are huts; with there is Paul a church. In the gospels all men are equal and God himself is a man; with Paul there is already something like a hierarchy; honours and offices. That is, as it were, what my dirty nose tells me

I was at a psychiatric hospital for a month because of this horrendous belief. It drove me to madness. I can't take it anymore. Show me the goodness of christianity. I can't find it anymore. — Beebert

I'm sorry your have been troubled enough to need hospitalization. You are by no means the only person at this forum who have experienced these kinds of problems. Over the years (I'm 70) I haven't been very successful at managing the kind of obsessive thinking that takes on a life of its own. It captures the spotlight of our attention.

I think it might be the case that the way you are approaching your encounter with scripture is being directed less by your cognition and more by mood. This isn't a failing of your ability to think, it's a consequence of your mood disorder, or whatever it is. But it's very tough to think clearly when we do not feel well.

The long passage Agustino quoted is an important one: In it the author makes very clear that we can know nothing about God. God is beyond our entire skill set. God spoke through the prophets, not the other way around. Maybe God became flesh in Bethlehem--"God lies in a manager, in flesh now appearing" as a Moravian hymn puts it--to overcome the problem of his utter otherness.

Yes it was very unfortunate. I was so driven by despair or something that I was close to commit suicide, and then, fortunately, I decided I needed serious help. I gave up. And now it was 9 months ago and I have actually just recently started to recover, but there are still some troubles left. Because before, I thought I was condemned(it was the ideas of Calvin, evangelical calvinists, fundamentalists, Luther and Augustine that drew me to madness), but now I am angry instead. Because I feel tricked and fooled and manipulated. And unfortunately it is hard for me to read the bible, because I read it in a calvinistic way. And honestly, I believe the ideas of Calvin are perhaps the worst ideas ever invented by a man. I can barely come up with anything worse than the idea of a cosmic torturer who decides before the foundation of the world to create human beings only to satisfy his own "glory"(vainglory I would rather say) in terms of displaying his different "attributes" like wrath, justice, "love" etc. Love for the "elect", they say, and that is perhaps 5 percent of the population. These were chosen before the foundation of the world to be saved from God's anger, wrath and justice. The rest of humanity are damned from all eternity, without any saying in the matter. They will be tortured in a literal fire for all eternity. And you know, these days, this is what I find in scripture and nothing else.

Have you read anything about Slavoj Zizek? He interprets(quite unorthodox though) the passion of Christ in the sense that God, in the moment he died, himself became an atheist. Christ's death according to Zizek was the end of God's "otherness". The "Big other" died on the cross and man is left to himself along with the holy spirit. Something like that...

I generally find it hard to appreciate St Paul. — Beebert

I think it is safe to say that quite a few people find it hard to appreciate Paul. Paul was something of a self-powered buzz-saw. Brilliant guy, no doubt. Paul is useful if, for not other reason, that he shows to us that believers were forming up in the Jewish diaspora, either with the help of their own memories of Jesus, with the help of apostles or with other workers.

Paul found formation in progress and helped it move forward. He helped systematize the formation, and thus, stamped later Christianity with P-A-U-L. Either God wished that it would happen that way, or that's just the way things worked out. Take your pick.

Job is a fine story up until you realize there's no tangible justification on God's part for condemning Job in the first place. — Heister Eggcart

How do you know that? No reason is given that we know of. There is a reason, but it will not be revealed to everyone in this life, and to those for whom it is revealed, I doubt it could be put in a syllogism that everyone would find convincing. For everyone else, there is the hope that it will be revealed in the life to come. Secondly, why do you assume God condemns him? In the story, it's Satan who brings about Job's misfortunes, not God.

Yes, I've heard about Zizek. Zizek hasn't been quoted here in video just recently (as far as I know) but he has a following here. Or at least he did on the old Philosophy Forum. The old Philosophy Forum was resurrected as The Philosophy Forum and then died. Resurrections which occur before death are especially miraculous.

One of the interpretations of the Death of God is that God becoming incarnate in Jesus--the "God lies in a manger" image. The incarnation was not the death of God, but in becoming flesh, Heaven was emptied of God. God "died" on the cross. What remained was God's spirit in the world, no longer secluded, but here, in this world.

Obviously I have no way of knowing whether that is true or not. I sort of like it, but an empty heaven is somewhat troubling. All that vacant real estate. What are the angels doing in the meantime, unsupervised as they are?

Are all our prayers ending up in an email address from which no responses are ever sent? Or do we receive an automated message? "God is out of the office at this time. His time is not your time, so please do not hold your breath waiting for an answer." Or maybe, "Your call is very important to God. Please stay on the line. All calls will be answered in the order they were received. You are caller # 7,342,965.681. Your wait time is about 1 billion years, give or take 15 minutes. If you don't want to wait, call back at a later time."

I think why Zizek tries to interpret it that way is because he sees the danger of superstition and such things.

What is your pick on Paul? God's will or an accident that christianity has rather been paulinism? I agree that he was a brilliant man, there is no doubt about it. But he has influenced western christianity more than Christ himself almost. And much of his teachings has made christians neglect action and deed. I am not talking about "works", but action and deed. I also believe he is the reason christianity has been made so often into a system.

(it was the ideas of Calvin, evangelical calvinists, fundamentalists, Luther and Augustine that drew me to madness — Beebert

Write on the blackboard 100 times (a la Bart Simpson), "Fuck John Calvin, Fuck Martin Luther, Fuck Augustine, and double fuck all fundamentalists."

Hahaha, I will actually do that! Bart Simpson was a genius.

What is your pick? — Beebert

I pick

that's just the way things worked out. — Bitter Crank

I've spent way too much time around Christianity to have no emotional connections with it -- and that has been a long struggle -- but intellectually, i believe that human beings created the gods and religion. We created the gods in our own image and it is a high point of human culture. Some of our gods have represented the most practical needs (like fertility of the soil, that we might eat), and some of them represented our highest aspirations. Some of them have been really awful.

We are members of the primate family. We are very bright, yes, opposable thumbs, sure; big-brained, imaginative, language wielding, fire-using, tool making, primates. We were cast into this world unprepared to deal with all of the screwy contradictions which we have found in the world and especially in ourselves, and it drives us up the wall.

No I meant your pick on what you said about whether Paul's influence was good or not?

So you follow basically the ideas of Feuerbach then maybe?

How do you know that? No reason is given that we know of. There is a reason — Thorongil

So, an unreasoned reason? Surely there's something rather wrong with that.

but it will not be revealed to everyone in this life, and to those whom it is revealed, I doubt it could be put in a syllogism that everyone would find convincing. — Thorongil

Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if someone found a shot in the dark to be unreasonable.

For everyone else, there is the hope that it will be revealed in the life to come. — Thorongil

This life after which also is unreasonable and cannot be reasoned to be true or even potentially more true than any other future after death. As I remember telling Agustino some time ago, you end up with faith upon faith upon faith ad near infinitum.

Secondly, why do you assume God condemns him? In the story, it's Satan who brings about Job's misfortunes, not God. — Thorongil

If God has the power to remedy, he must also have the power to prohibit, yes? Even a Job who has faith can and will still be brought low and to his knees, whether or not he believes good will come about as a result. Also, I think there's a separation between Job attaining salvation and merely being redeemed on earth. Job is a story of earthly perseverance, not heavenly attainment. Job doubted because he lost his material needs, which still aren't even guaranteed or ensured if the story goes on and on.