I think perhaps Rabin was close to being an idealist. Sadly he was assassinated for it.
I've argued before in this thread that Israel's position in the region is and has been precarious. Perhaps that's why it can't afford itself much idealism. — Tzeentch
On the other hand, it's hard to see how Israel's blatant disregard for humanitarian law is benefitting it in the long-term. One could argue it's the idealism of Israel's hardline leadership that causing its ruthless policies vis-á-vis the Palestinians. A realist perhaps would sooner see the necessity of finding a modus vivendi, to avoid becoming diplomatically isolated in the region. — Tzeentch
Rather, "justice" for Hamas is utterly destroying Israel and cancelling any peace process, making it impossible for moderate Pals (especially in the West Bank). And of course, they don't allow Pals to vote them out. Don't forget, the main (realpolitik) reason Hamas did this was to stall peace talks between Israel and Saudi Arabia. They want to derail that, as they wanted to derail Oslo Accords with suicide bombings, etc. — schopenhauer1
For purposes of definition, I consider Idealists as ones who put universal rights above nation, and follows globalized institutions like the UN rather than national interests. No nation is fully idealist. The more a nation is under threat, the LESS likely they will go the Idealist route for getting out of its situation. — schopenhauer1
Who you rather have won WW2, the Allies or Axis? It's a really easy question to answer, is it not?
— RogueAI
I don't find it easy. I know roughly where we are, but I have little idea of where we would be if everything was different. — unenlightened
and then ...Eliminate Hamas — 180 Proof
Yes, including free from the post-1967, settler-apartheid strategems of the State of Israel.Free Palestine
— 180 Proof
You mean free from Hamas and other terrorist organizations. — magritte
Evict settlers from ALL of the internationally recognized Occupied Palestinian Territories.Evict Settlers.
— 180 Proof
Israel has actually evicted settlers. — ssu
Really now. You actually have to think about whether America or Nazi Germany should have won? — RogueAI
2. Palestine, which extends from the River Jordan in the east to the Mediterranean in the west and from Ras Al-Naqurah in the north to Umm Al-Rashrash in the south, is an integral territorial unit. It is the land and the home of the Palestinian people. The expulsion and banishment of the Palestinian people from their land and the establishment of the Zionist entity therein do not annul the right of the Palestinian people to their entire land and do not entrench any rights therein for the usurping Zionist entity.
Hamas affirms that the Oslo Accords and their addenda contravene the governing rules of international law in that they generate commitments that violate the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people.Therefore, the Movement rejects these agreements and all that flows from them, such as the obligations that are detrimental to the interests of our people, especially security coordination (collaboration).
Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. However, without compromising its rejection of the Zionist entity and without relinquishing any Palestinian rights, Hamas considers the establishment of a fully sovereign and independent Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital along the lines of the 4th of June 1967, with the return of the refugees and the displaced to their homes from which they were expelled, to be a formula of national consensus. — Hamas charter
If you want to call something a spade, you better make sure you know what a spade is.He despaired toward the end of his life of any change in the Palestinians’ disastrous position, whose leadership had signed away any gains made in the national struggle for self-determination with the Oslo Accords, which he called “an instrument of Palestinian surrender, a Palestinian Versailles.” — Foreign Policy
If you want to call something a spade, you better make sure you know what a spade is. — Benkei
Terrorist organizations can and do become responsible governing parties. The Israeli state itself emerged, in part, from terror organizations. You can see the same thing in many places. The problem isn't that Hamas can't make this change. Really, Hamas did sort of look more open to compromise before their violent take over of Gaza. And the West and Israel should have been more open to them, but the whole Post-9/11, "communists now ok, Jihadis bad," mindset stopped that.
But it's also not like Hamas ever moved particularly far in that direction. If anything, the past 8 years or so they have become more and more tied to Iran and their prerogatives, making them a less trustworthy partner. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a modern nation state that was founded by peaceful means. Most of them are due to violence, war, conquest, expulsion or coercion. — Manuel
Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a modern nation state that was founded by peaceful means. Most of them are due to violence, war, conquest, expulsion or coercion.
It really is total barbarism. — Manuel
I don't exactly see how this helps for this situation here. E — Manuel
Should we question our deepest held moral convictions? I think so, on occasion it is good to do so. — Manuel
Maybe not always, otherwise we wouldn't act on moral intuitions. — Manuel
Is there anything that has been said in this thread which would make you exclaim: "I exactly see how this helps for this situation here"? — neomac
Why aren't a war in Israel or in Ukraine a good occasion to do so? — neomac
For many, in this thread, "acting on moral intuitions" seems nothing more than broadcasting moral condemnations and blame attributions AS IF thinking that a peaceful foundation of nations is morally desirable, then it must absolutely be also possible. What if it is not possible as it seems it never ever was? — neomac
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