How viable is an independent state in the separated plots of land that basically the PA has? — ssu
It's the brief time to go to Israel and show the support.
It's more awkward when the land operation begins and the Palestinians really start dying and then be there telling how you support Israel. After all, all those reservists need some refresher training before they can operate as a team in urban combat. — ssu
Well, I'm not sure do they have an working government. Lebanon is nearly a failed state. Hezbollah, which does have seats in the Lebanese Parliament, is basically in charge of Southern Lebanon. Hence the Lebanese Army doesn't enjoy monopoly in the country. And what was the Lebanese government left to do when Israel had it's war with Lebanon? Then prime minister Siniora made a declaration after the the casualties Lebanon suffered that Lebanon would be "the last Arab country to make peace with Israel".I mean, again, we can probably start talking culture here, but doesn't that support Israel's wariness of hostile neighbors? Why can't Lebanon moderate either? A bloody civil war is unwanted, but perhaps there is more tacit support than would be willing for that to happen in Lebanon. I don't know the full situation there other than Hezbollah has a large percentage of their "parliament". — schopenhauer1
Yes, because the Egyptian voters voted "wrongly" and voted the Muslim Brotherhood to power, who weren't at all so eager to continue the warm relations with Egypt.Of course, in order to do that, it needed to go back to the usual authoritarianism. — schopenhauer1
It seems that compromise, and moderation are not going to work when you have religious para-military style governments running a country like Lebanon. — schopenhauer1
Well, in general nation states tend to be divided by ethnic lines.You are saying all this on your own assumption of ethnic separation as the basis for peace. — magritte
There's five million Native Americans in the US, which is 1,5% of the population or with mixed heritage about nearly 3%. There's even far more Asian Americans in the US. Perhaps when there's 1,5% Palestinians left (now every fifth in Isreal is an Arab) of the Israeli population, they can be granted similar reservations with similar gambling rights? (Oh darn! I think Islam forbids gambling.)For a more distanced analogy how does this work in the US or Canada with indigenous peoples who were granted lands forever, do they want separation (Some in fact do, and claim 'historical' rights.)? — magritte
Well, I'm not sure do they have an working government. Lebanon is nearly a failed state. Hezbollah, which does have seats in the Lebanese Parliament, is basically in charge of Southern Lebanon. Hence the Lebanese Army doesn't enjoy monopoly in the country. And what was the Lebanese government left to do when Israel had it's war with Lebanon? Then prime minister Siniora made a declaration after the the casualties Lebanon suffered that Lebanon would be "the last Arab country to make peace with Israel". — ssu
Yes, because the Egyptian voters voted "wrongly" and voted the Muslim Brotherhood to power, who weren't at all so eager to continue the warm relations with Egypt. — ssu
The end? Hamas for revenge in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel for revenge and to make up for the fact they did not prevent the attacks. — Manuel
My impression is that, when people are cool and level headed, they get along perfectly fine. It's when the state gets involved in matters, removed from direct control by the people, that these problems tend to arise of get magnified. — Manuel
Psychology is not the place to look, as any psychological survey of terrorists will show random behavioral traits. The answer lies in sociology and in social psychology, in our gut irrational responses on a group, social, and tribal level. — magritte
Well then the state must be having different goals from that of the people, what could these be? Dare I suggest they are self-serving? — FreeEmotion
A series of missed opportunities and stubbornness. Pride can become an ethical problem. A series of missteps towards the beginning that moved each side to the right. — schopenhauer1
What we learn from history is the suppression of groups of people, if it succeeds, will lead to a lasting peace. Human rights? The entire history of the world can be described as a litany of human rights abuses, from one era to another. This is how history is made. — FreeEmotion
Strawman as I've said again and again about Hezbollah, which isn't the Lebanese government. Your the one asking why "Lebanon cannot moderate". Well, that "Lebanon" is nearing to be a failed state if it isn't and doesn't have the ability to control it's territories. Yet for you it seems "Hezbollah = whole Lebanon". I don't think especially the Maronite Christians in Lebanon are actively engaged in the war in Israel.1) As to Lebanon, sounds about right in terms of the government, except then you go on to blame Israel, the knee jerk reaction. As if there is a group that doesn't want to see Israel destroyed in there... — schopenhauer1
Well, that's basically one of the reasons the military took over the country. So bitch about them being not democratic. Democracy isn't this miracle drug that makes people change their thoughts.2) Yeah, I wonder why Israel wouldn't want to see the group that was the progenitor for Hamas, a group that would like nothing better than to wipe Israel off the face of the map, retain power.. — schopenhauer1
Quite a strawman there again. What I have said that Hamas and Likud embrace each other. Netanyahu wants to annex Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and Hamas just works for him giving him the evil city with the human animals. There's no other way for Israel than to go into Gaza, really, not even if the opposition would be in power. That's the natural response when you have an army like IDF. If a country would be weak and couldn't do anything about the terrorists strikes, then there wouldn't be anything else than plea help. But Israel has a strong military which can go into Gaza. And Hamas basically wants that. Those religious zealots think there's the next generations growing, so it's not so bad for them if they take a hit now. The following battles will just deepen the hatred for the Jewish State, which is their purpose. And for Likud it's the perfect event that just show how it's impossible to do any peace agreement, that any compromise with the Palestinians backfires. Everybody that has tried that has been wrong, because just look at what happened.Also, if an enemy combatant came into your country, killed your civilians in brutal ways, and then took 200 hostages, no one is going to question if the government should try to root out the perpetrators if they had the means to do so, unless you are SSU — schopenhauer1
But Israel has a strong military which can go into Gaza. And Hamas basically wants that. Those religious zealots think there's the next generations growing, so it's not so bad for them if they take a hit now. The following battles will just deepen the hatred for the Jewish State, which is their purpose. And for Likud it's the perfect event that just show how it's impossible to do any peace agreement, that any compromise with the Palestinians backfires. — ssu
Strawman as I've said again and again about Hezbollah, which isn't the Lebanese government. Your the one asking why "Lebanon cannot moderate". Well, that "Lebanon" is nearing to be a failed state if it isn't and doesn't have the ability to control it's territories. Yet for you it seems "Hezbollah = whole Lebanon". I don't think especially the Maronite Christians in Lebanon are actively engaged in the war in Israel. — ssu
Well, that's basically one of the reasons the military took over the country. So bitch about them being not democratic. — ssu
@BadenQuite a strawman there again. What I have said that Hamas and Likud embrace each other. Netanyahu wants to annex Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and Hamas just works for him giving him the evil city with the human animals. There's no other way for Israel than to go into Gaza, really, not even if the opposition would be in power. That's the natural response when you have an army like IDF. If a country would be weak and couldn't do anything about the terrorists strikes, then there wouldn't be anything else than plea help. But Israel has a strong military which can go into Gaza. And Hamas basically wants that. Those religious zealots think there's the next generations growing, so it's not so bad for them if they take a hit now. And for Likud it's the perfect events that just show how it's impossible to do any peace agreement, any compromise with the Palestinians. Everybody that has tried that has been wrong, because just look at what happened. — ssu
Also, if an enemy combatant came into your country, killed your civilians in brutal ways, and then took 200 hostages, no one is going to question if the government should try to root out the perpetrators if they had the means to do so, unless you are SSU, Benkei et al from philosophy forum, seated high in their academic bubble. Next you'll quote Mao and Lenin, and colonization and all the rest without nuance either. It's all part of a same package of an ideology gone off the rails. The "West" (post-WW2 reality) is "bad", and any group that is generally aligned against it, is good. What bullshit.
This just shows an odd "glitch" in this (your) thinking where it is recognized that various actors, countries and groups missed opportunities (the Arab countries with the Three No's when peace was offered for return of captured lands in 67, the second attempt to destroy Israel in 1973, the missed opportunity to take a deal in the Camp David Accords, etc.), but then goes back to the skipped record, and still redirects attention always to the bias against Israel. — schopenhauer1
Given the today's circumstances and those of decades past, I think it's no longer reasonable to expect solutions coming from either side. Both sides are traumatized by decades of brutal conflict - 'mentally ill' is the metaphor I would use. — Tzeentch
The international community should have stepped in. — Tzeentch
As the United States attained hegemony, Israel felt that with its big brother at the wheel, it no longer had to look for a modus vivendi but could press home the advantage.
If I had to point at one party in particular to be responsible - as in, having reasonably the power to make a change for the better - it might have to be the United States. It used its near-total power to impose circumstances on nations far and wide, but somehow never in the regions that truly required an imposed solution. — Tzeentch
There can be extremists on either side, but this doesn't discount the lack of moderate Palestinians to take a deal and start moving on living their lives, trading with Israel economically, and trying to make a prosperous country for themselves and their children rather than no compromising on what really matters, and creating a prosperous situation for themselves. — schopenhauer1
They did. It was called the Oslo Accords. Arafat could have taken a deal and that last deal could have made him ironically from "fighter" to "founder". — schopenhauer1
Yeah I think they should continually always want the moderates to go for peace talks, but find the Palestinian moderates — schopenhauer1
Gaza we needn't even mention, but the situation in the West Bank is barely any better. It's a police state, where Palestinians are policed by the Israeli army and the Israelis are policed by the Israeli police (who are nowhere to be found). — Tzeentch
Palestinians cannot freely traverse Israeli-controlled areas of the West Bank, and if you look at this map of the West Bank, you will see how entire communities are cut off. — Tzeentch
I try to stay impartial and maintain some understanding for the Israeli position, but at the same time we cannot pretend this isn't happening. There is no semblance of an equal playing field. Every day of "peace" means more Palestinians are driven from their homes. This settlement policy is essentially a slow annexation and ethnic cleansing of the West Bank. How are Palestinians supposed to build up a prosperous existence amidst all of this? — Tzeentch
Arafat could have accepted a deal on the Israeli's terms. Would that have been better than no deal at all? I think nowadays many would say yes. But it's not reasonable to shove all blame into Arafat's shoes.
There's a lot to be said about the Oslo Accords, and you know full well that it wasn't as simple as what you're sketching here.
At the same time, I will agree with you that leadership on both sides failed. And it failed for reasons which were understandable. This conflict is far too severe to expect either side to act within the bounds of reason and indeed they are chronically incapable of it. — Tzeentch
Considering the circumstances many Palestinians find themselves in, it's an miracle moderate Palestinians still exist. — Tzeentch
In as far as Israel should relinquish control to PA, sure. But PA will have to step into role of constant mediator for their own extremists. Do they have the will to do this? So how should Israel proceed. What happens many times is, Israel relinquishes control, then the extremists do some attack, and then Israel takes control again because it says that the PA can't do a good job containing their own extremists. I am not sure the answer to this. Israel is going to act out of security when this happens, but I guess some sort of commission should be had whereby the PA sees what failed and what can be given to them to improve their ability to police their territory? — schopenhauer1
But see, then that falsely give up the notion that Palestinians have not been able to create a majority of democratically-minded compromisers who are willing to quash their own radicals. — schopenhauer1
It's a matter of if the moderates are willing to clamp down on the radicals and ARE there enough moderates to do so? If so, then Israel should do all it's power to embolden the moderate Palestinian forces. The move should be away from tactical and onto strategic. — schopenhauer1
Good leaders consider the long term, not their own popularity at the moment, granting that you still need practical wheeling-and-dealing to get the vision accomplished. — schopenhauer1
Israel was willing to take whatever deal was given them when they were the "underdog". — schopenhauer1
Getting rid of the Israeli settlements, thus giving the PA complete control over the West Bank, is sadly not going to happen. There are too many Israeli settlements. — Tzeentch
Moderates in Palestine? Yes, I believe there are many. Most people are interested in living a peaceful existence. I visited the West Bank in 2019, and that at least was my impression. — Tzeentch
Suicide bombings are an act of desperation. — Tzeentch
I don't think that's true. In the 2000's Israel was far from the underdog. In the '60s, '70s, yes, a case could be made for Israel being the underdog. In 2000, with Uncle Sam at the wheel? I don't think so. — Tzeentch
Yes, Israel's security concerns should be, and should have been taken seriously. — Tzeentch
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