I think that is a fallacy of necessity argument. — schopenhauer1
Yes, so in those scenarios where Israel was the underdog, they acted in a way to get peace, not the opposite. — schopenhauer1
Which is why strict 1967 borders has been seen as a concern (beyond just the settlement issue). — schopenhauer1
Who would you prefer babysit your toddler? Israel or Hamas? More to the point, who would you trust as a nuclear power, Israel or Iran?
— RogueAI
You're on the verge of sounding racist, dude. I'm sure that's not what you intended. — frank
I don't think I've ever seen a US administration mismanage foreign policy this badly. Literally everything they touch turns into a trainwreck. — Tzeentch
You stated yourself the strategic difficulty of Israel. — schopenhauer1
Fyi AP seems to be confirming now, based on the evidence available to them, that it was most likely a Hamas rocket. — flannel jesus
Israel’s assessment, backed by U.S. intelligence and President Joe Biden, also cited the lack of both a large crater and extensive structural damage that would be consistent with a bomb dropped by Israeli aircraft. — AP report
The AP analyzed more than a dozen videos from the moments before, during and after the hospital explosion, as well as satellite imagery and photos. AP’s analysis shows that the rocket that broke up in the air was fired from within Palestinian territory, — AP
and that the hospital explosion was most likely caused when part of that rocket crashed to the ground....
A lack of forensic evidence and the difficulty of gathering that material on the ground in the middle of a war means there is no definitive proof the break-up of the rocket and the explosion at the hospital are linked.
...
A small explosion is then seen on the ground in the distance, followed two seconds later by a much larger blast closer to the camera. The corner of the scroll at the bottom of the live broadcast reads 6:59 p.m. Gaza time. — AP
American officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive information, said that multiple strands of early intelligence, including infrared satellite data, show a launch of a rocket or missile from Palestinian fighter positions within Gaza. They cautioned that the analysis was preliminary.
A senior Defense Department official said that, based on data collected by infrared sensors, the United States was “fairly confident” the launch did not come from Israeli forces. — NYT
Lt. Col. Amnon Shefler, an Israeli military spokesman, said the calls to the hospital were part of a wider campaign to urge civilians to leave northern Gaza ahead of an expected Israeli invasion. Colonel Shefler said the hospital was not a target for the military. — NYT
“I believe the US intelligence community likely has enough imagery, communications intercepts, and other data to determine where the projectile originated that stuck in the Al-Ahli al-Arabi hospital and what the original statements of people on the ground were as to what they believed happened,” said Mick Mulroy, a former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East and retired CIA officer.
“In addition, from the video released publicly, the explosion is consistent with a rocket that still had a lot of rocket fuel at the time of impact,” Mulroy added.
...
It might help a little bit with planning for potential ground clearance, and some of the signals intelligence collection capabilities could detect Hamas communications to help pinpoint hotspots of their activity. But the official noted that Hamas has been pretty smart about staying off communications – one of the reasons, sources say, the group was able to avoid Israeli detection during the planning of the October 7 attack in Israel. — CNN
In November 2012 three relatives, including infant son, of a BBC journalist Jehad Mashhrawi was killed by what was initially attributed to IDF strike, with photo of Jehad holding his dead son becoming viral in world media, but a few months later UN attributed the strike to a rocket fired from Gaza.[179] On 25 June 2014 a child was killed by a misfired rocket.[180] On 28 July 2014 Hamas rockets exploded inside Gaza killing seven and damaging Al-Shati refugee camp and Al-Shifa Hospital.[181] On 8 May 2019 in a rare admission, Islamic Jihad confirmed that a Palestinian child was killed by their own misfired rocket.[182] In 2022 overall 16 people estimated were killed by rockets falling short in Gaza.[183] On 11 May 2023 a failed rocket killed four civilians in Beit Hanoun as out of 507 fired rockets 110 fell short in Gaza.[184] In October 2023 the Al-Ahli Arab Hospital explosion was initially attributed to Israeli airstrike, until after independent evidence became available it was attributed to a misfired Hamas rocket.[185] — Wikipedia
By siding with Israel's hardliners the US is bringing Israel closer to the cliff and burning bridges in the process, but few people seem to realize this. — Tzeentch
4:19
nobody wants peace more than Israel but
4:23
the stumbling block to the road for
4:24
peace is this demand for a PLO state
4:27
which will mean war war which will mean
4:29
more violence in the Middle East and I
4:31
think I sincerely believe if this demand
4:33
is abandoned we can have real and
4:35
genuine peace...
6:54
these are the ones who say they are part
6:56
of the Arab nation these are the ones
6:57
who say they already have a Palestinian
6:58
state there is no right to establish a
7:01
second one on my doorstep which will
7:03
threaten my existence there is no right
... — Transcript
Israel’s assessment, backed by U.S. intelligence and President Joe Biden, ... — AP report
It's the United States' pathetic groveling that has encouraged Israel to stay on this ultimately self-defeating path. — Tzeentch
Simply not putting onus back where it belongs. — schopenhauer1
My point with the Ww2 analogy is that, (and I’m by no means a military tactician) these type of bombings seem to be apart of ground operations as well to minimize the casualties on the side that is about to send in ground troops. — schopenhauer1
For example if you have two rational actors (they both care about protecting human lives for their own people) the bigger country will force the smaller to stop the very first time the smaller one sees how much damage the bigger one is willing to inflict. — schopenhauer1
Al Jazeera is of course just a propaganda machine, AP at least has a history of being more objective. — flannel jesus
Do you mean the hardliners who selfishly oppose those committed to their utter destruction? That is, the touchy-feely, cuddly-friendly neighbors of Israel, who just recently, as it happens, in case you missed it, murdered - apparently just for the heck of it to show what fine and fun fellows they are - about 1400+ just plain folks, kidnapping another 200-plus. And of course what do you make of the US negotiating on behalf of Palestinians and in favour of a two-state solution? (Of course in the world of Tzeentch that never happened, nor happens.) And that the Egyptians and Jordanians - no fools they - who should be brothers to the Palestinians, want no part of them at all.By siding with Israel's hardliners — Tzeentch
You can't justify the actions of Israel's hardliners through Hamas. In fact, said hardliners have at various points in time supported Hamas to weaken the PLO and reduce support for a two-state solution. — Tzeentch
Absolutely, right on. Well-statedDo you mean the hardliners who selfishly oppose those committed to their utter destruction? That is, the touchy-feely, cuddly-friendly neighbors of Israel, who just recently, as it happens, in case you missed it, murdered - apparently just for the heck of it to show what fine and fun fellows they are - about 1400+ just plain folks, kidnapping another 200-plus. And of course what do you make of the US negotiating on behalf of Palestinians and in favour of a two-state solution? (Of course in the world of Tzeentch that never happened, nor happens.) And that the Egyptians and Jordanians - no fools they - who should be brothers to the Palestinians, want no part of them at all.
No, it seems the only pathetic groveler here is you. And it's unseemly; you should stop it. — tim wood
Mass bombing has never made a whole lot of sense. At the end of WW2 not a single German city was left standing, yet they fought on till the bitter end.
And this is also not WW2 - this is basically Israel conducting a counterinsurgency operation. Mass bombing during counterinsurgency operations has the opposite effect, since the huge amounts of civilian casualties ensure the extremist elements grow. — Tzeentch
This sounds like caveman logic to me.
If this were a feasible strategy I don't think the United States would have suffered a string of defeats at the hands of much smaller nations which it bombed completely into the ground. — Tzeentch
You mean nearly 20 years ago when the extent of how they operate as a para-governmental entity wasn't known yet and as you stated earlier were almost co-equal with Fatah in terrorist acts? — schopenhauer1
Besides the fact that your first statement sort of contradicts your second statement (did they keep fighting or not?.. The answer is yes they kept going. but they were eventually defeated.), your analysis contra my analogy just seems wrong here. — schopenhauer1
In some sense, even though Nazi Germany was extremely rigid and hierarchical (and in that sense predictable actors in war), by the end of the war, Hitler acted irrationally. Instead of giving up when it was known the defeat was all but inevitable, he encouraged the rigid compliant hierarchy to carry on to the bitter end. It was not until after he literally had to commit suicide, that the German leadership had to give up the ghost and finally declare unconditional surrender. In that sense there are some similarities of irrational actors waging war. Hitler wanted hand-to-hand street combat, all hands on deck, women and children fighting to the bitter end. He wanted nothing less than absolute maximum resistance to the end. Hamas being irrational actors, want the same thing. Death does not make a difference to them. Protecting their own people's lives makes no difference to them. The bombings in WW2 were for several reasons. The main one was to destroy weapons and manufacturing facilities. The other was to cause fear and break their will and to stop resisting. But you see, Nazi Germany wasn't representing a "just cause" JUST because they (by that point) were the underdog! I think most historians (minus very egregious examples like the fire bombing of Dresden) agree this war could only be won with full surrender of Germany. And by this point, the unbelievable amount of devastation that had taken place perpetrated by the Nazis just did not give the Allies any pause on this one. — schopenhauer1
That's because (and justifiably), they did not have an unconditional surrender mentality as in WW2, as they knew those wars were not worth it in the end. Hot wars during the Cold Wars did indeed have very spotty (if any) justification (such as the whole "Domino Theory" during Vietnam). — schopenhauer1
Israel is not fighting WW2. It's conducting a counterinsurgency. The dynamics are totally different, and I don't see the point in this comparison. — Tzeentch
:100: :fire:Netanyahu helped create Hamas, just like the US helped create Al Qaeda, ISIS, etc.
He used Hamas specifically to sabotage the PLO to avoid having serious talks about two-state solutions and other peace plans.
[ ... ]
The US committed de facto genocide in Vietnam, and it wasn't enough to secure them victory.
This method (sadly) has been tried, and it has failed every time. turning the perpetrators into the very monsters they claimed they were fighting. — Tzeentch
Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. — reportedly spoken by the commander of the Albigensian Crusade, prior to the massacre at Béziers on 22 July 1209
It's amazing what Hamas can just say and the whole world will believe. — flannel jesus
↪FreeEmotion You're right. The position of Israeli hardliners has always been the same, and it has always been quite extreme by normal standards. They've rarely deviated from their course, and when that threatened to happen under Rabin they offed him. — Tzeentch
We say to you today in a loud and a clear voice: Enough of blood and tears. Enough. We
have no desire for revenge. We harbor no hatred towards you. We, like you, are people
people who want to build a home, to plant a tree, to love, to live side by side with you in
dignity, in empathy, as human beings, as free men. We are today giving peace a chance, and
saying again to you: Enough. Let us pray that a day will come when we all will say: Farewell
to the arms.
We wish to open a new chapter in the sad book of our lives together a chapter of mutual
recognition, of good neighborliness, of mutual respect, of understanding. We hope to
embark on a new era in the history of the Middle East. Today, here in Washington, at the
White House, we will begin a new reckoning in relations between peoples, between parents
tired of war, between children who will not know war. — Israeli PM Rabin, 1993
To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven:
A time to be born, and a time to die;
A time to kill, and a time to heal;
A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to love, and a time to hate;
A time of war, and a time of peace.'
Ladies and Gentlemen, the time for peace has come.
After the raid, the Israeli assault team returned to their aircraft and began loading the hostages. Ugandan soldiers shot at them in the process. The Israeli commandos returned fire, inflicting casualties on the Ugandans. During this brief but intense firefight, Ugandan soldiers fired from the airport control tower. At least five commandos were wounded, and the Israeli unit commander Yonatan Netanyahu was killed
Benzion Netanyahu (Hebrew: בֶּנְצִיּוֹן נְתַנְיָהוּ, IPA: [bentsiˈjon netaˈnjahu]; born Benzion Mileikowsky; March 25, 1910 – April 30, 2012)[2][3] was an Israeli encyclopedist, historian, and medievalist. He served as a professor of history at Cornell University. A scholar of Judaic history, he was also an activist in the Revisionist Zionism movement, who lobbied in the United States to support the creation of the Jewish state. His field of expertise was the history of the Jews in Spain. He was an editor of the Hebrew Encyclopedia and assistant to Benjamin Azkin, Ze'ev Jabotinsky's personal secretary. — Wikipedia
Revisionist Zionism was based on a vision of "political Zionism", which[clarification needed] Jabotinsky regarded as following the legacy of Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern political Zionism. His main demand was the creation of Greater Israel on both sides of the Jordan River, and was against partitioning Palestine with the Arabs, such as suggested by the Peel Commission.
Designed for defeating the enemy in open areas, moving vehicles as well as concealed or structure protected enemy.Warhead Versions:
Steel ball blast fragmentation warhead with kill radius of more than 20 meters
Anti-Structure Warhead with 20 cm concrete penetration capability
Fuze Versions:
On impact
Delayed detonation
Proximity detonation — IAI
It is surmised that the IDF use 'Sledgehammer' missiles for roof knocking. These are low-payload, high accuracy missiles with proximity detonation capability. This means they can detonate above the roof top, further limiting danger to civilians. Once it is confirmed that residents have vacated a building, the IAF claims that this then clears the fighter for attack and the target is destroyed. The IAF claims that they select the appropriate munitions for a strike to ensure that they achieve the desired effect with minimal damage to untargeted structures and people. This means that they can use bombs with payloads as small as 285lbs for precision strikes. Such claims, however, often do not mitigate civilian harm. Many of these claims are as contested as they are defended. — ReliefWeb
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