Anyway, no one is denying the history of antisemitism in the Middle-East. Trying to excuse Israel's treatment of Palestinians in this way is familiar caveman logic. — Tzeentch
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians while shocking to you appears to overlook the fact that Palestinians butchered and burnt babies, raped women, and took the very old as hostages. — Hanover
Claiming either side has a moral edge in justifying murder is....justifying murder. — Pantagruel
Should the Allies have bombed Nazi Germany in 1945? — schopenhauer1
The point here is that the Arab nations have been expelling Jews from "their" land historically and during modern times. That clear case of apartheid for some reason is overlooked. What's also overlooked is that while there has been a Jewish presence in Palestine for thousands of years, a large portion of today's Jews are the descendants of refugees from all over the globe. Jews currently exist in their largest numbers (although still very small) in Israel and the US, and then way down the list you come up with France and the UK, but those numbers are very low.
The big picture here, if you're not seeing it, is that this tiny minority is being evicted from everywhere they go, including Israel, one of the only places available. If not for the US, where do you think they'd go? — Hanover
Israel's treatment of the Palestinians while shocking to you appears to overlook the fact that Palestinians butchered and burnt babies, raped women, and took the very old as hostages. — Hanover
Still looking for the moral high ground? The moral high ground, preferably with a deep surrounding ditch of historical persecution and subjugation, is always the most easily defensible, especially when guarded by "innocent civilians". — unenlightened
Should the Allies have bombed Nazi Germany in 1945? — schopenhauer1
Would you like to answer that question? — schopenhauer1
Certainly. What one should do in these circumstances is die. It's very clear; Jesus did it and he told his followers to do it. And everyone can understand it. The blood sacrifice has to be made. All the horror comes from wanting someone else to do it. — unenlightened
What should happen is that people stop try to justify and legitimize violence in all of its repulsive aspects. Morality is exercised in living contexts, not historical evaluations. — Pantagruel
That being said, I think Israel should abide by its own principles in war and provide as much aide as possible to Gazans, keep its air strikes only at targets that are absolutely seen as necessary to disarm them, not just anywhere they suspect. They need to actually have a strategic plan for a two state solution and work to bolster the moderate Palestinians. — schopenhauer1
I don't know if Hamas drank too much of their own Kool Aid, just badly miscalculated, or simply acted for Iranian interests here. The more I think about it the less sense it makes. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The IDFs problem is that a siege is by far and away the safest way to destroy Hamas but also a gross violation of human rights. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Maybe. But carrying ops out in total secrecy that result in massive collective suffering while failing to accomplish any real goal outside of that very suffering? And then preplanning so that you're sitting cozy on supplies while others go without? That could spark backlash. — Count Timothy von Icarus
I don't think it's so.People on this forum don’t want to recognize that is what Israel is dealing with. — schopenhauer1
Gaza, who knows. Yet remember that Israel has basically twice tried to take care of Lebanon by launching an war against it. Twice it has had to retreat from Lebanon and then the rockets have flown again from there.if they occupied Gaza or southern Lebanon one of the first orders of business would be completely dismantling Hamas and Hezbollah. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The IDFs problem is that a siege is by far and away the safest way to destroy Hamas but also a gross violation of human rights. Realistically, they can't choke Hamas off from food, electricity, etc. without doing it to everyone. If they were alone in a fort or something, the obvious move would be to just sit and wait until they surrender. — Count Timothy von Icarus
That might sound reasonable in theory, but in practice it never works out that way, and because Israel is seen as the occupying force it will receive most if not all of the resentment resulting of it.
In reality, bombing campaigns and collective punishments have never worked. They have always strengthened the insurgency, while simultaneously inflicting immense suffering on civilian populations.
Gaza, who knows. Yet remember that Israel has basically twice tried to take care of Lebanon by launching an war against it. Twice it has had to retreat from Lebanon and then the rockets have flown again from there.
And what is dismantling Hamas? Great, you can declare that every Hamas leader is either dead or in captivity! And how much time when the next generation of Hamas comes into existence? A decade? So you'll have a few years before it's time "to mow the lawn again". How great is that idea of perpetual war?
just badly miscalculated — Count Timothy von Icarus
Terror attack bared West Bank barrier’s gaps, but some say holes help keep the peace
Experts say despite tough talk from army, unspoken policy of allowing Palestinian laborers to enter Israel illegally for work will remain as a vital pressure release valve
Emanuel Fabian
By EMANUEL FABIAN
7 April 2022, 6:24 am
I don't think anyone (or nearly anyone) thinks Israel isn't allowed to deal with the terrorist threat it's facing. It's really about how they deal with it and if Israel takes into consideration Palestinian civilians or not. Or if the Gaza is the evil city with human animals as Bibi and the defense minister have said...and that's what you give as an order for the military. Warfare does have laws and one should try stick to them. Those laws don't mean that civilian casualties cannot happen. It's about civilian casualties counted in the thousands and not in the tens of thousands. Or in the hundreds of thousands. Besides, the more Palestinian civilians die, the better for Hamas. — ssu
I would love that too. I write a whole post also condemning the perpetual cycle of violence. But the point was to illustrate how the situation can be framed whereby it is both true it is absolutely wrong that any innocent civilian dies in war and yet there is still a justification in a war with a combatant who by all means is rotten in both its means and ends (Nazis and Hamas).
And thus whilst I consider Israel justified in its war on Hamas, it will be an extremely unfortunate fact that just like innocent Germans were bombed and died, Gazans being under this rule unfortunately also fall under this circumstance.
That being said, I think Israel should abide by its own principles in war and provide as much aide as possible to Gazans, keep its air strikes only at targets that are absolutely seen as necessary to disarm them, not just anywhere they suspect. They need to actually have a strategic plan for a two state solution and work to bolster the moderate Palestinians. — schopenhauer1
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