What part of some violence is acceptable and some isn't is so incredibly hard for you to grasp that you start making shit up about my position? — Benkei

I'm sorry, I was mad. Let's back up. I agree with you that slave violence against their masters is justified. What about a slave that kills the plantation owner's kids? That wouldn't be justified, but what if the slave had good reason to think the kids would ruin the head start he could have in his escape? Would the violence against the kids be justified?

As far as I am aware, the majority of settlers are regular Orthodox Jews. The ultra-orthodox Haredi have largely (but not always) opposed settling on the West Bank due to their anti-Zionist stances. — Tzeentch

Thanks for the correction, I'm not so familiar with different sects of Israel.

As now the US has retaliated on attacks on it's forces by attacking the Revolutionary Guard in Lebanon, but also de facto defended Israel from a possible drone from the Houthis with the USS Carney shooting down 15 drones and four cruise missiles, I think the possibility for the conflict to escalate is actually high.

(US Navy defending Israel on the Red Sea)


And the land assault hasn't started yet, only with probing attacks.


Doesn't look good. Hopefully both Iran and the US can keep their cool. And minimize it to slaps on the wrist.

And given support of relevant foreign governments, even such a "clean" strike is not going to help Palestinian aims. But I don't think it follows they shouldn't do anything in such an event. — Benkei

I think this is a very difficult problem to deal with, morally.

If you are in a situation where you are clearly oppressed, but do not see any actually effective way out, what do you do? Are you allowed to attack your captor, jailor, torturer? Even if all that will do is result in one more death on the list? Is "fighting evil" a moral good in and of itself?

One can put the question in the reverse: At what point does participation in an immoral system strip you - in this specific context - of your right to bodily integrity, to liberty, to life?

I don't think this is an alien concept. Self-defense laws often work this way, though usually not explicitly. They follow the dictum that the person who puts themselves outside of the law by their actions then looses the protection of the law from the consequences.

This perspective seems to make the problem clearer: it is with identifying the fight against the system with the fight against specific persons. Maybe in turning yourself into an enforcer for a system, you're morally taking onto yourself its crimes?

History is replete with examples where violence to gain independence was acceptable. The point being that if the Palestinian cause for independence is justified, every action by Israel against that is already contaminated as something immoral. — Benkei

But this is false. Not every action taken against a justified cause is immoral, much less punishable. I agree that one can retaliate (in due proportion) against an oppressor, but this is a separate issue. In particular, one must recognize that not all means to independence are licit.

An insight from today's NY Times (gift link provided)

Hamas has spent years stockpiling desperately needed fuel, food and medicine, as well as ammo and weapons, in the miles of tunnels it has carved out under Gaza. ...

Hamas has hundreds of thousands of gallons of fuel for vehicles and rockets; caches of ammunition, explosives and materials to make more; and stockpiles of food, water and medicine.... A senior Lebanese official said Hamas, which is estimated to number between 35,000 and 40,000, had enough stocked away to keep fighting for three to four months without resupply.

...The supply situation speaks to the relative sophistication of Hamas as a fighting force — an axiom among military professionals is that while amateurs talk about tactics, professionals talk about logistics. Yet with Gazans facing a humanitarian catastrophe, Hamas’s stockpiles raise questions about what responsibility, if any, it has to the civilian population. ...

Yocheved Lifshitz, 85, a freed hostage, said that while in captivity she ate the same single meal that Hamas fighters eat every day: pita bread with two kinds of cheese and cucumber.

Mr. Ghattas said there was little chance that Hamas would be willing to provide food or any other kinds of supplies to aid civilians. “The Hamas movement cares only about the Hamas movement,” he said. “The public of Gaza mean absolutely nothing for Hamas.” — As Gazans Scrounge for Food and Water, Hamas Sits on a Rich Trove of Supplies

Hamas are holding their own population hostage in support of their military and public relations aims.

Meanwhile the senior leadership of Hamas resides in relative luxury in hotels in Qatar, as well as in Lebanon, Turkey and other safe spaces well away from the conflict zone.

Doesn't look good. Hopefully both Iran and the US can keep their cool. And minimize it to slaps on the wrist. — ssu

We can only hope.

Reports are that four US carrier groups are headed to the eastern Mediterranean and Red Sea. That's a massive deployment, likely not meant to scare small fish like Hamas or Hezbollah, and probably offensive in nature.

But time will tell.

Also, yesterday a resolution was adopted by the UN General Assembly calling for an “immediate, durable and sustained humanitarian truce leading to a cessation of hostilities.”



UN General Assembly resolutions aren't legally binding, so in all likelihood will be promptly ignored by Israel and the United States, but it does show how isolated they have become in terms of global opinion.

Reports are that four US carrier groups are headed to the eastern Mediterranean and Red Sea. That's a massive deployment, likely not meant to scare small fish like Hamas or Hezbollah, and probably offensive in nature.

But time will tell. — Tzeentch

Just two aircraft carriers is rare and basically a two carrier battle group is a wartime deployment. Four would basically mean all possible carriers out of the eleven, because with a rule of thumb one third is on repairs and fitting out... in peacetime.

(Situation of the USN major surface combatants at sea, October 16th, 2023)

Also, yesterday a resolution was adopted by the UN General Assembly calling for an “immediate, durable and sustained humanitarian truce leading to a cessation of hostilities.” — Tzeentch

Notable is that along the lines of US and Israel, the only other US allies that joined being against were Czechia, Croatia and Hungary. The majority abstained and France voted in favour.

Meanwhile the senior leadership of Hamas resides in relative luxury in hotels in Qatar, as well as in Lebanon, Turkey and other safe spaces well away from the conflict zone. — Wayfarer

I think the actual leadership is now committed to the fighting in Gaza. Of course the "representatives" in the Gulf States are there to hold up the flag especially if the present cadre is wiped out in Gaza.

A sober assesment of the situation from UN's Navi Pillay, Chair of the UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory. Naturally she sees both sides clearly committing warcrimes. Not surprising that the US or Israel disregards her position of having any authority. That she heads this kind of Independent Comission isn't even written her Wikipedia page, which writes like she has retired this decade. Very typical in the way persons like her are kept out of the public view.

She, as an South-African, when asked about the Apartheid-nature of the occupation agrees on it, but points out that it has only happened because of the occupation.

"The United States is appalled that the Iranian Ambassador in Geneva may serve as the Chair-Rapporteur of the Social Forum, an annual meeting in Geneva established by a UN Human Rights Council resolution, to be held in November. "
https://geneva.usmission.gov/2023/05/23/statement-by-ambassador-taylor-on-the-appointment-of-the-iranian-ambassador-as-chair-of-the-social-forum/

The UN is an Israel-hating joke.

The UN is an Israel-hating joke. — RogueAI

Why?

"The United States is appalled that the Iranian Ambassador in Geneva may serve as the Chair-Rapporteur of the Social Forum, an annual meeting in Geneva established by a UN Human Rights Council resolution, to be held in November. "

So whenever Israel has a spat with a country, they should be disallowed from participating in UN bodies?

And if Israel is allowed on any committee, the U.N. is an Iran-hating joke? :chin:

The United States is appalled" — RogueAI

Oh no! :monkey:

So whenever Israel has a spat with a country, they should be disallowed from participating in UN bodies? — Tzeentch

"LGBTI people suffered systemic discrimination and violence. Consensual same-sex sexual relations remained criminalized with punishments ranging from flogging to the death penalty. State-endorsed “conversion therapies” amounting to torture or other ill-treatment remained prevalent, including against children. Hormone therapy and surgical procedures including sterilization were mandatory for legal gender changes. Gender non-conforming individuals risked criminalization and denial of access to education and employment.

In August, LGBTI rights defender Zahra Sedighi-Hamadani, known as Sareh, and another woman, Elham Choubdar, were sentenced to death for “corruption on earth” by a Revolutionary Court in Urumieh, West Azerbaijan province, due to their real or perceived sexual orientation and/or gender identity and their social media activities in support of LGBTI communities.6 The Supreme Court quashed their conviction and sentence in December and sent their case for retrial.

Women and girls
The authorities continued to treat women as second-class citizens, including in relation to marriage, divorce, child custody, employment, inheritance and political office.

The legal age of marriage for girls remained at 13, and fathers could obtain judicial permission for their daughters to be married at a younger age.

Women and girls were at the forefront of the popular uprising, challenging decades of gender-based discrimination and violence, and defying discriminatory and degrading compulsory veiling laws that result in them facing daily harassment and violence by state and non-state actors, arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment, and denial of access to education, employment and public spaces.

There was a stricter enforcement of these laws in mid-2022, culminating in the death in custody of Mahsa (Zhina) Amini in September, days after she was violently arrested by Iran’s “morality” police amid credible reports of torture and other ill-treatment."
https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/iran/report-iran/

You and Baden apparently have no problem with Iran leading a UN human rights group. I think you're nuts.

, sure seems conflicting.

A bit like when Saudi Arabia chaired UN's Human Rights thing, or Russia led UN's Security thing.

I suppose, having the theocrats take some responsibility for all to see, being inclusive, could have some positive effects. One could hope anyway, though admittedly I haven't (personally) been impressed so far.

Fortunately the Jewish religious zealots aren't so deadly towards Christians as the Muslim religious zealots are towards them in many other Middle Eastern countries. And it's now a bit ironic that the ultra-orthodox protested against their military service. — ssu

Jews are not a murderous people. Murder is the primeval sin in our religious texts; Judaism is also a much older religion than Islam. The ultra-orthodox have been disliked for years by their fellow Israeli Jews for a myriad of reasons.

I've seen a few YouTube video on the guys with the black clothes and ringlets etc who say Israel shouldn't exist. They seem really nice and rational. It's the bloodthirsty lot that worries me.

You and Baden apparently have no problem with Iran leading a UN human rights group. I think you're nuts. — RogueAI

You can't infer that from my post. I do have a problem with it. But my point was that it has nothing to do with Israel. Iran being on a human rights committee is certainly perverse. So would it be for Israel but for different reasons.

(As for the "appalled" comment. The US gets "appalled" whenever it suits its interests. It wasn't appalled at Israel's bombing of schools or refugees on routes Israel itself designated safe. And it's not "appalled" by the thousands of dead Palestinian civilians in general. What's apparently a worse crime against humanity is some committee designation. The US has zero moral standing and simply pursues its strategic interests (like every other large powerful state), so such statements can safely be taken with a grain of salt.)

An insight from today's NY Times (gift link provided) — Wayfarer

Thank you for sharing your point of view. I would not have imagined it possible.

By the same token, if another country in the same situation, say Great Britain in the second world war, if they were cut off on every side and being bombed with no food and water coming in, no electricity, the British Armed forces are supposed to use their supplies to support the civilian population, and degrade the only defense they have against an armed invasion? Fuel, for example?

Why don't they simply stop fighting and surrender?. That is the question that should be asked.

No mention in that long article that the "Israeli blockade is ineffective, since Hamas has all this food and supplies. Suppose Hamas starts sharing and caring, what happens, does it neutralize the isolation?

Neither Nettanyahus extreme right wing Zionist government cares about the Gaza, it would seem, no-one cares.

This conflict is a acid test for humanity. Maybe that is its purpose.

This conflict is a acid test for humanity. — FreeEmotion

Perhaps, but I am sure not the way that you suppose. There can be no test of or for humanity until and unless you have some humanity to test for. A great crime against humanity - one of countless - was committed against Israel and Israelis by the organization Hamas, targeting Jews and apparently including everyone and anyone else in the vicinity. I don't know that the Israelis have used the word, but I think of their reaction as a police action against a criminal terrorist organization. And if anyone were genuinely interested in the well-being of Palestinians they would commit to aiding the Israelis in apprehending the criminals, all of them, thus ending on the moment any need for further violence. And it looks like that is what the Israelis are about.

Now here's a question your answer to which, if you give it honest thought, may surprise you. Who cares more about the Palestinians, the Jews or the Arabs?
.

An insight from today's NY Times (gift link provided) — Wayfarer

Thank you for sharing your point of view. I would not have imagined it possible.

By the same token, if another country in the same situation, say Great Britain in the second world war, if they were cut off on every side and being bombed with no food and water coming in, no electricity, the British Armed forces are supposed to use their supplies to support the civilian population, and degrade the only defense they have against an armed invasion? Fuel, for example?

Why don't they simply stop fighting and surrender?. That is the question that should be asked.

No mention in that long article that the "Israeli blockade is ineffective, since Hamas has all this food and supplies. Suppose Hamas starts sharing and caring, what happens, does it neutralize the isolation?

Neither Nettanyahus extreme right wing Zionist government cares about the Gaza, it would seem, no-one cares.

This conflict is a acid test for humanity. Maybe that is its purpose.

Neither the US nor Israel is in the position to lecture anyone on human rights.

In addition, modern-day Iran is a problem Israel and the US themselves created.

So you hit the double whammy for hypocrisy. :lol:

Jews are not a murderous people. Murder is the primeval sin in our religious texts; Judaism is also a much older religion than Islam. The ultra-orthodox have been disliked for years by their fellow Israeli Jews for a myriad of reasons. — BitconnectCarlos

And in which religion murder wouldn't be a sin? Those religions with human sacrifices have dissappeared, and even they didn't that you can randomly murder anyone. You can have individuals, groups organizations and states that are murderous, not whole people.

Neither Nettanyahus extreme right wing Zionist government cares about the Gaza, it would seem, no-one cares. — FreeEmotion

I wouldn't say that. The EU is quite divided in this issue and for example France and Macron don't share the views of the US. Erdogan is so mad that Israel is withdrawing diplomats because of his comments. And Hamas has achieved at least one objective, the halting of the normalization of relations between Israel and Saudi-Arabia. The Palestinians are back in the center of focus.

Hence actually, so many care that this war might escalate.

The same ones that keep whining about Russia being provoked (while being not aggressed by anybody) and Russian "legitimate" security concerns which led Putin to wage war against Ukraine (so a huge discount on his moral responsibility for his actions), annex Ukrainian territories, and deny the Ukraine's right to exist as independent state after formally acknowledgining its independence, are now whining over Israel defending itself after being provoked through an actual terrorist aggression on Israeli territory from the political faction that is governing Gaza with the support of the local people and without ever being acknowledged as a legitimate state by Israel. And then they accuse others of double standads and hypocrisy.

The Palestinians are back in the center of focus. — ssu

This is one point of agreement. I feel bad that I have not been aware of all the conflict and suffering that has gone on around the world. Not the 'center of focus'. Maybe if people were aware of things and starting protesting earlier, maybe things could have been different. Look at all the other conflicts- Yemen for example, or Sudan. Azerbaijan. What is happening there?

Christians will find it hard to believe that the Israel has treated Palestinians this way.

How Evangelicals Betray Christians In The Holy Land [Pt. 2]

And for the Palestinian Christians who would say to you,
10:32
“We are actively being oppressed by the state of Israel. We're persecuted here.”
10:35
What do you say to them?
10:37
I would say,
10:38
take a look at the scriptures and love them and be a blessing in any way you can,
10:42
even if you're being persecuted. What did Jesus say?
10:45
He said, “Turn the cheek.”
10:47
You think they should love their oppressor?
10:49
I don't believe that Israel is oppressing them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHT-SjIM0tA

"I don't believe that Israel is oppressing them."

I have heard this all before, "they are not being oppressed" therefore they are fighting over nothing, they have no reason to engage in terrorism, they should stop. Later, you learn that there was a reason, many years later. Then, you do not hate terrorists, you see them as a rational human beings recruited and inspired into violence. They never plead insanity. Those pulling the strings are the ones responsible, you think. If the reason for terrorism is mental illness, we have a problem, if it is oppression, there is a solution, stop oppressing.

If everyone had known what they know now, things would be so different.

The EU is quite divided in this issue and for example France and Macron don't share the views of the US. — ssu

Yes, there is some division on this issue, the question is why. Is it the humanity?

The news sites are also divided, that's OK, but deliberately refusing to address the issue is something else altogether, I must say I am rather surprised and disappointed that those supporting the "Evangelicals" are so very unscrupulous.

Fox News - war is approaching second phase, and further down the page, reports a horrific event:

"32 dead, more than 60 injured in horror vehicle pile-up in Egypt"

Israel-Hamas war: Thousands raid Gaza aid centers, UN says - DW

BBC reports same thing.

Is the news now changing? Interesting to see what twists the news takes in the next few days.

Pro-Israel types say "If the Arab stopped fighting, there would be peace. If Israel surrendered, they would be slaughtered."

That's true, but it doesn't nearly go far enough. If Gazans surrendered, they would not only have peace, but if they let foreigners rule over them, rewrite their laws, and build their institutions, they would achieve a level of prosperity that would've been unthinkable before.

Their irrational commitment to self-determination is at the root of the problem. The most successful countries in Africa and the Middle East are basically run by catering to the needs of foreign capital. The people are themselves better off as a result.

As the Gulf Arabs show, there's even a way to do it where you keep your culture. You just can't have a society centered around undoing the results of wars you lost.

If Gazans surrendered — Chisholm

Like the French in June 1942

Look at all the other conflicts- Yemen for example, or Sudan. Azerbaijan. What is happening there? — FreeEmotion

At least Azeris are happy, they got the Nagorno-Karabakh to themselves and the Armenians there are fleeing (or have left) the place. That conflict is resolved.

I must say I am rather surprised and disappointed that those supporting the "Evangelicals" are so very unscrupulous. — FreeEmotion

The support of American Evangelicals of Israel one of the most ludicrous things in present politics. For them Israel isn't an ordinary state, it's something nearly divine.

So it seems. Yet I think the question is how Israel defends itself. Is there a legitimate question about using excessive force? I think there is. Is it when 10 000 Palestinian civilians killed? Or 50 000? Or 100 000 out of 2,2 million? Would over 100 000 dead be excessive? Already Israel has made more strikes than the US did in one year in the war in Afghanistan.

But you are correct that we didn't have a similar debate about the Russian strategy of bombing hospitals and civilian targets. Yet as of September 2023, the UN has reported that 9 614 civilians have been killed and Ukrainian officials say about 11 000 are missing.

The largest number of deaths was recorded in March 2022 - more than 3,900 - when Russian troops occupied part of Kyiv region and advanced towards the capital.

Urban combat is dangerous for civilians, especially there's not much restrictions on using artillery.

And as Gaza was basically totally dependent of Israel for water etc, the population is in danger. And if during peacetime Gaza recieved daily 500 trucks with supplies and now it has gotten 80 after October 7th, it's no surprise that people are looting UN warehouses.