Palestinians in Gaza in free elections in 2006 elected Hamas as their government. And I remember clearly being astonished that they had done so. That is, they did, have been. and are self-determining, presumably with no external interference other than what they choose to be interfered with by. — tim wood

I think it is worth pointing out that the United States had free elections in 2016 and 2020 "according to some accounts" . Does that mean that everyone is responsible for the result?

After those free elections, if Canada blockaded your coastline, and prevented ships from delivering goods, and no-one was allowed to leave, what do you think would have happened?

A real insurrection, this time.

I think you need to state all the relevant facts here.

Quite common, I know. How else explain why one's God-given homeland hasn't been home for thousands of years? But I assume you're aware that many people don't consider the Bible or the Torah to be determinative, especially when it comes to ownership of land — Ciceronianus

Some Orthodox Jews, and I have posted a link to the video earlier, consider that the it is God's will that Jews be in exile until "God gathers them back", God, meaning not the British or the United States, although some will worship these entities. These are anti- Zionists, and adherents to the Jewish religion.

As a Christian, I have been unimpressed with the idea that these are "God's people" therefore they have the right to expand their territories, my memory goes back to 1973 when I remember first hearing this sort of comment. Years later, again, talking to an evangelical in New York, he had to agree that "Not everything Israel does is right". Again, in around 2013 or so, I would hear again statements from a minority, how the IDF at that time was nice enough to warn people that their building was going to be blown up. We learn later "We need to bomb your building".

As a reasonable human being I was not impressed.

The 2023 Netanyahu Right Wing Government seems to be intent on revenge, not only revenge, but more of its motivation is to colonialist. Nothing special to 2023 Israel but it has all the hallmarks. An effort for ensure a military victory plus a peaceful solution would look very different, I think.

Florida Governor Ron de Santis was interviewed on PBD recently, and he correctly pointed out that Israel has a great deal of support among Evangelical Christians in the United States.

It is called Christian Zionism.

Christian support for Israel is not a recent development. Its politcal roots reach as far back to the 1880s, when a man named William Hechler formed a committee of Christian Zionists to help move Russian Jewish refugees to Palestine after a series of pogroms. In 1884, Hechler wrote a pamphlet called “The Restoration of Jews to Palestine According to the Prophets.” A few years later, he befriended Theodor Herzl after reading Herzl’s book The Jewish State, and joined Herzl to drum up support for Zionism. Hechler even arranged a meeting between Herzl and Kaiser Wilhelm II to discuss Herzl’s proposal to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. The two men remained close friends up until Herzl’s death in 1904.

An important milestone in the history of Christian Zionism occurred in 1979, almost a century after William Hechler approached Herzl and offered to mobilize Christian support for a Jewish state: the founding of the Moral Majority. Founded by Rev. Jerry Falwell, the Moral Majority was an organization made up of conservative Christian political action committees that succeeded in mobilizing like-minded individuals to register and vote for conservative candidates. With nearly six million members, it became a powerful voting bloc during the 1980s and was credited for giving Ronald Reagan the winning edge in the 1980 elections. One of the Moral Majority’s four founding principles was “support for Israel and Jewish people everywhere.”

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/christian-zionism

https://newlinesmag.com/argument/israels-current-crisis-exposes-christian-zionisms-contradictory-ideals/

On the other hand, it is a Biblical truth that God deems it necessary to let His people suffer - slaves in Egypt, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the end-times in any case are times of horrific suffering.

How many of you are familiar with these words?

Luke 19:41-44
New International Version
41 As he approached Jerusalem and saw the city, he wept over it 42 and said, “If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace—but now it is hidden from your eyes. 43 The days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment against you and encircle you and hem you in on every side. 44 They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.” — Luke 19:41-44

Who are we to condemn for this?

To refuse to block Nazis marching through the streets and then block any other group is simply inconsistent if not hypocritical. Inquisitions are alive and well, this time it is the secular ones that prevail. Jordan Peterson is obviously unaware.

This actually happened:

The Skokie Case: How I Came To Represent The Free Speech Rights Of Nazis
In 1977, the ACLU of Illinois received a call from a Nazi leader complaining that his planned demonstration had been blocked. The ensuing legal battle, and the controversy around it, would test the organization’s commitment to the First Amendment.
By David Goldberger
March 2, 2020 — ACLU website

The irony is suffocating, though.

"a call from a Nazi leader complaining that his planned demonstration had been blocked. "

This has to be made up, but no, it isn't.

The demonstration was to last for about 30 minutes, after which the Nazis would return to their headquarters on the south side of Chicago.

Look at this shit:

South into the Sinai: Will Israel Force Palestinians Out of Gaza? (Carnegie, 2023)

Since the October 7 Hamas attacks, Israel has sustained an unprecedentedly brutal assault on the Gaza Strip. The Israeli government has stated that its aim is to eliminate Hamas and seems to be preparing for a full ground invasion. But it is becoming increasingly clear that the war is in pursuit of a second goal: the mass expulsion of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip. Israeli politicians and officials from the Israeli defense establishment have called for a second nakba and urged the military to flatten Gaza. Some suggest that Palestinians should flee Gaza through the Rafah border crossing with Egypt and seek refuge in the Sinai Peninsula, including former Brigadier General Amir Avivi and the former Israeli ambassador to the United States Danny Ayalon.

Avivi and Ayalon insist that evacuating Palestinians out of Gaza is simply a humanitarian measure, protecting civilians while Israel conducts its military operations. But other reports suggest that Palestinians would be permanently resettled outside of Gaza, in an act of ethnic cleansing. On October 17, the Misgav Institute for National Security and Zionist Strategy—an Israeli think tank founded and led by former defense and security officials—published a paper urging the Israeli government to take advantage of the “unique and rare opportunity to evacuate the whole Gaza Strip,” and resettle Palestinians in Cairo with the assistance of the Egyptian government. Separately, a leaked document from the Israeli Intelligence Ministry recommended forcibly resettling 2.2 million Palestinians from Gaza in the Northern Sinai and constructing a buffer zone along the Israeli border to prevent their return.

Israel is actually considering ethnically cleansing Gaza at the top level, with US support.

At this point it's hardly a surprise, I suppose. But it does show how deep the West has sunk, and that it's still looking to explore ever deeper depths.

I'm reminded of a popular Mitchell and Webb sketch: "Hans, are we the baddies?"

But I guess
The UN is an Israel-hating joke.
— RogueAI
:nerd: — Tzeentch

Yep. It has come to that.

That's why I also think that this war can easily now expand.

One of the great ironies of the 1948 war is that it was largely fought by the Israelis with Czech surplus Kar98k rifles donated by the Soviets, rifles which had been stamped with swastikas for their intended Nazi users (a dark premonition of the apartheid state perhaps?) — Count Timothy von Icarus

I am glad you brought this up. Wars are always proxy wars, it seems, which technically constitutes interference in the affairs of other nations, probably violating the UN Charter. — FreeEmotion

Notice in the actual war of Independence that total lack of any "special relationship" between US and Israel, no urging of the special "Judoe-Christian heritage" that makes the US the greatest ally of Israel and Israel a most important ally for the US. In fact the FBI was dying all it's best to prevent the new country from getting weapons!

And let's just remember that the most valuable outside assistance that Israel got, the nuclear weapons program, came from France. NOT the US. Israel has much to thank France in the years when it truly faced peril from it's neighbors.

2) Palestinians in Gaza in free elections in 2006 elected Hamas as their government. And I remember clearly being astonished that they had done so. — tim wood

And then PLO/PA and Hamas fought over control Gaza and there hasn't been any elections afterwards. That fighting part and then holding power without any elections is always forgotten. But I guess it's still extremely important to mention that Hamas did get a lot of votes (as people were tired of the PA).

Israel is actually considering ethnically cleansing Gaza at the top level, with US support. — Tzeentch

As that article states, it talks about getting assistance from Egypt. That's not happening. Hence this is irrelevant.

We are now at the point where Israel implements Nazi policies in the occupied territories, South African style Apartheid in its own territories and shows the same disdain for international law as Putin does. Quite a feat.

In what world is that irrelevant? :lol:

Amidst all this hand-waving of genocide, I feel like I'm getting a real good look at some of TPF's denizens.

simple questions: how old is Judaism? How old are nation states? How old are passports as a means to enforce national borders? It's a subversion for political reasons.

I heard was basically an attempt to offer a justification for Israel's right to the land. — Hanover

That post was a historic account, where I agreed with the principle that Jews (not Israel) were offered land to establish themselves due to the centuries of persecution. I questioned the wisdom of the location that was chosen. I don't think Israel's sovereignty of land that has been recognised is in question and it's weird you read is as such when that account in fact it supports the view that the State in principle is well established also from an ethical point of view.

nor do they believe that their rights to the land are based upon or subject to international approval. — Hanover

A silly implied argument, nobody else thinks about it therefore it shouldn't be an issue. Seriously? The reason nobody thinks about it is because nobody is challenging those rights, whereas Israel's rights have been challenged from the beginning. And it's also not true that borders don't continue to be an issue, they're just negotiated by governments. For instance, the Germans and Dutch have several treaties on how to share gas deposits that extend under their respective borders. There will be joint development of platforms in the north sea as a result but the underlying reason is competing claims to those deposits.

Edit: out of time for now, I'll get back to more later.

Rough approximation of the area the IDF is holding, with reports of temporary advances outside of these axes. So far, they have stayed out of denser areas (with some exceptions).

Estimates are that 800,000 of the 1,100,000 civilians who live above the river have evacuated, but that still leaves a lot of people in the area and a lot of civilian infrastructure. The more the advance stays out of urban areas the better most likely.

I have not seen any estimates for how many Hamas fighters stayed in the North. Might be impossible to tell.

I imagine the pressure to let new supplies in will grow once they have bisected the Strip, since they can't plausibly claim that they lack an ability to intradict supplies moving north.

simple questions: how old is Judaism? How old are nation states? How old are passports as a means to enforce national borders? It's a subversion for political reasons. — Benkei

Not a simple question. The history trace back around 4000 years, but many of the key religious ideas/concepts doesn't form until the 1st millennium BC. Nation states don't emerge until the 16th century IIRC. Passports are 19th century. Judaism formed in autonomous ancient kingdoms in Samaria.

What makes Israeli policy in Israel's borders similar to Apartheid? I always thought the comparison was apt, but for the Occupied Territories.

Israeli policy in Gaza is hard to compare even with Nazi policy towards the French, let alone the policies they are best known for. There is a difference between callous ROE and lack of concern for collateral damage and attempts to exterminate the population.

Israel is now bombing refugee camps several days in a row, and not even throwing up nonsense propaganda anymore to try and cover its tracks.

Israeli airstrikes hit refugee camp for a second day

Where Israel is going, there will be no coming back from.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-official-says-group-will-repeat-oct-7-attack-twice-and-three-times-to-destroy-israel/

If that is accurate, then Israel would be crazy to agree to a cease-fire.

Who are we to condemn for this? — FreeEmotion

For what?

It's interesting that scholars have concluded that the Gospel of Luke was written 10 years or so after the Roman siege of Jerusalem and their destruction of the Second Temple and most of the city in 70 A.D. or C.E. It explains the reference to the encirclement of the city. Construction of ramparts around a city and encircling it with legionary camps was standard Roman practice during sieges.

Israel is creating Hamas, not destroying it

Notice in the actual war of Independence that total lack of any "special relationship" between US and Israel, no urging of the special "Judoe-Christian heritage" that makes the US the greatest ally of Israel and Israel a most important ally for the US — ssu

The establishment of Israel had everything to do with the doctrine of replacement theology and Christian Zionism. Ever heard of the founding of Singapore, and who cares?

Here is what is the most sensible explanation of how the Bible does not support Zionism,a sermon preached in Bethlehem, after all. Dr. Hank Hannegraaf states that unfortunately the dominant Christian view is one that supports Zionsim.

Hank Hanegraaff: A Gospel Response to Christian Zionism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q51sL-2SOmo

It is terrible to think that today's atrocities are the result of pig-headed preaching and deception of vast numbers of believers. That is a crime. I know the nonsense I have had to hear.

It's interesting that scholars have concluded that the Gospel of Luke was written 10 years or so after the Roman siege of Jerusalem and their destruction of the Second Temple and most of the city in 70 A.D. or C.E. It explains the reference to the encirclement of the city. — Ciceronianus

Indeed, but it does not preclude the possibility that Jesus predicted it, if you believe that Jesus actually existed.

My point is that Zionists never talk about the disasters and exile as God's doing, only the return. If you accept that bombing a hospital is God's will then you have to accept that the Hamas attacks were God's will as well, as I mentioned, the Bible is full of examples of Israel being punished for not following their God, not being faithful to the Almighty.

In the meantime conservatives that champion family values are now displaying extreme prejudice.
Gaza is a litmus test for the soul, it is. Disappointing and indefensible.

Jesse Watters: We've had it with the Middle East

Where Israel is going, there will be no coming back from. — Tzeentch

I fear it is the path the self-destruction or at the least, self-harm. I do not want to see lives lost on either side, anymore.

If that is accurate, then Israel would be crazy to agree to a cease-fire. — RogueAI

Israel is acting crazy anyway, don't be surprised.

“There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“who wishes to fight must first count the cost”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Also

“Build your opponent a golden bridge to retreat across.”
― Sun Tzu

“There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

“who wishes to fight must first count the cost”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War — FreeEmotion

Unfortunately, nations always have adversaries, and war is the state of nature for all nations whether they want it or not.

The cost of war also includes the cost of refusing it. History shows unequivocally that it is always better to conquer than to be conquered.

I'm ignorant, but where does Sun Tzu speak about the possibility of any universally sustainable peace amongst nations?

Israel is creating Hamas, not destroying it — bert1

That is a possible certainty. I'm willing to entertain the idea that Hamas is directly funded and operated by a secret branch of the Israeli government for obvious reasons. But I'm also a big fan of the apocalypse that places Israel at the center of it all. It is all very entertaining :grin:

I'm willing to entertain the idea that Hamas is directly funded and operated by a secret branch of the Israeli government for obvious reasons. — Merkwurdichliebe

It's pretty much an accepted fact that the Netanyahu government at various points in time supported Hamas in order to disenfranchise the more moderate elements within Palestine.

The Israeli newspaper Haaretz even calls it the 'Netanyahu-Hamas Alliance'.

But I think this is a classic example of 'feeding the beast', only for it to turn on you. US and Israeli Middle-East policy is rampacked with examples like this.

Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, Al-Qaeda - I could go on. There's scarcely an extremist group in the Middle-East that doesn't have Uncle Sam's greasy fingerprints all over it. Even modern-day Iran is a direct result of continuous divide & conquer strategy to keep the Persian Gulf weak (and thus easily influenced by the US for oil).

The problem for Israel now is that much of the Middle-East seems to have caught on to this pattern. In fact, one could argue the whole world is catching on to this.

I didn't really mean it that way. I meant unintentionally by pissing people off. Nevertheless Hamas is useful as an excuse to continue colonisation. Conflict is in the coloniser's interests.

Wearing the symbol of victims of the holocaust while engaging in genocidal crimes against civilians in Gaza. Shameless and vomit-inducing.

Wearing the symbol of victims of the holocaust while engaging in genocidal crimes against civilians in Gaza. Shameless and vomit-inducing. — Tzeentch

They started to use their propaganda to brainwash the people. I bet we will see a lot of Hollywood films regarding this conflict too.

It is important to highlight that the history and facts are always told by people according to their reality. I wonder what people will think in the next 10 or 20 years. I bet they would think that Palestine deserved it.

If there are actually people who believe that Japan deserved nuclear attacks, I guess they would think the same about the genocide of Gaza...

They started to use their propaganda to brainwash the people. — javi2541997

This propaganda is age-old. The problem for Israel is that no one is believing their bullshit anymore, and the world is now rallying against it and the United States.

I've heard several analysts claim that unless a cease-fire is put into action, multiple actors are gearing up to join the war on Friday (a prayer day for Muslims). Among them Iran.

The problem for Israel is that no one is believing their bullshit anymore, — Tzeentch

:up:

I hope he is wrong, really. I don't think this is just propaganda to lull the enemy into a sense of security, though that is possible. When faced with Armageddon, people tend to tell the truth I think.

"Israel will Face Destruction if this Continues"-Col. Macgregor Warns of Armageddon on Tucker Show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrazXS2f34Y

"Killing people is not going to solve the problem, but it is very attractive at the moment..."

Israel is creating Hamas, not destroying it — bert1

That's a risk any country takes when going to war, but what would you recommend Israel do? Suppose you were president of Israel. What would your response have been to the attacks? Suppose you were the American president after 9/11. Would you have gone after Al Queda? Also, suppose Israel adopted a pacifist strategy and gave in to Hamas's demands. Would Hamas and all the other Muslim terrorist organizations stop trying to kill Jews? I doubt it.

They started to use their propaganda to brainwash the people. I bet we will see a lot of Hollywood films regarding this conflict too. — javi2541997

I guess they have a reason to that. But of course Hollywood will be there.

People living their life and caring of their children and elders, attending a music festival and overall enjoying life... until psychopathic terrorists come and try to kill everybody. And here you can be absolutely truthful, nearly making a documentary. That all happened.

And in truth, it would be as truthful as making a film about people living their hard life in Gaza and caring of their children and elders... until homes are bombed and an invasion is launched, even without the "knock" or the phonecall/text message "How are you doing? We'll bomb your home now." And here you can be absolutely truthful, nearly making a documentary. That all happened.

But will you put both stories on the same movie? Never.

That isn't allowed. Either you have to side with the Zionists or the Islamists. There has to be the good guys and the bad guys. As you couldn't condemn both.

And that is what disgusts me the most.

I agree, and furthermore, that both tragedies are not part of the same story tellers. I bet the victims and tragedy of Israel will be the main plot in the Western media and there will be a good number of productions in cinema and TV. As far as I try to be more cult in cinema, I have discovered that Iranian and Lebanese films are pretty good, but for whatever reason they are hardly seen in our culture. This also happened with Soviet cinema.

For example, Ursu Uzala is a top film by Kurosawa. Yet, what we know the most about this Japanese master are his films about Samurai - a good piece of art, that's a given -. What I do not understand is why Ursu Uzala is not known by the public generally. When I discovered that it was inspired in the Russian context and plot, it rang a bell to me...

On the other hand, although I admit that Nazi Germany and Holocaust films are great - Schindler's List, for instance - it seems that they only focused on Jewish people, while the Holocaust also affected Socialists, homosexuals, gipsies, etc. I never heard of a film about the Holocaust in which these victims are also included.