It's no good saying "look at it this way" because I'm not looking at it in any way. Nihilism isn't a choice, it's what happens when you don't make a choice. I just want the ability to make a choice. — daldai

You mean Nihilism is the truth? That's the only way I can make sense of the claim that you have no choice.

I agree but...

This situation, Nihilism, makes sense only in the present. I don't know if it'll still be relevant in the future. Scientific advancement is a real thing and with it will come many discoveries that'll transform our lives. May be I'm being too optimistic but there is a chance, no matter how small, that living conditions will improve.

Well, if ever a thread played into my wheelhouse, this is the one, as you might guess by my username.

I share a general worldview with you. I don't think there are any spirits or forces or higher powers. The intellectual issue with nihilism is simply a lack of specificity. I know that sounds too easy, and in a way it is, because there is an emotional element underpinning the intellectual one. But let's deal with the intellectual issue. Basically, the problem is that there is no objective meaning, right? and it feels like there should be, right? So the questions are, why does it feel like it should be that way, and what would an "objective meaning" even consist of? The answer to the second question is the easier, which is that there is no satisfactory answer. If there was a God that handed down meaning from on high, you could just ask, "yeah, but why should I care about your meaning?". So we're looking for a squared circle. We have a worldview that precludes what we're looking for. So why are we looking for it? Why does there have to be a singular, objective meaning that defines our striving in one fell swoop? Because it matches with 1) the myths from our culture, and 2) evolution isn't kind enough to give us a psychology that is perfect, just good enough to keep the species going, and it fits with the flaws of our psyche.

So the cure isn't to fool yourself into thinking there is actually some meaning, but to realize that the search for the type of meaning that is universal, objective and singular is not necessary, and bound to lead to sorrow. That's where the emotional part comes in. People have evolved something called habituation, which means that no matter how good or bad we have it, we always end up getting used to what our current state is, and wanting more. It should be obvious what the evolutionary pressure for that is. That means that for the most part, people feel a vague sense, often unattached to anything they can put their finger on, that something is missing. It is common to associate this generalized feeling of dissatisfaction to a lack of meaning. I would suggest that simply being aware that such an effect is happening eases it's unpleasantness, and over time, can make it disappear. It worked that way for me anyways. I am now about as content with my life as I could imagine, and don't feel "existential angst" at all, ever.

I think history, and non-secular cultures today, tell us this. When societies have religion peoples' lives have meaning. When western culture embraced scientific realism, people's lives lost meaning.

Another way of looking at it is to ask the question "what do people 'mean' when they say they want meaning in their lives?" Well, I think that when someone feels that they have a belief that is justified it acquires meaning and therefore adds meaning to their lives. But, life itself is not a belief, it's a truth (I think therefore I am), so it's a mistake to apply the process of justification to something you already know is true. Searching for the meaning of life is taking the process of justification beyond the point that it is useful. You could call it the existential justification fallacy.

It's not what I say or do, certainly in any conscious way. I do short-term, superficial, fun-driven, sex-driven relationships pretty well, but that's not enough for it to grow into something deeper. I think my nihilism means that there is not enough "me" to fall in love with, basically.

I don't really see scientific progress (which I don't equate with the idea of societal progress that the west is obsessed with) as one theory replacing another. Einstein didn't replace Newton. He came up with a more accurate way of describing the same phenomena, but Newton hasn't lost any of it's relevance because of that. I don't give science absolute explanatory privileges but I do claim that it has now given us enough knowledge that it's safe to assume that the universe, including humanity, doesn't need any supernatural forces to fully explain it's existence.

I've just noticed that I posted a reply to the wrong discussion-thread at this website. I posted a reply to a question in a different discussion-thread at this website, but I accidentally posted it to this discussion-thread.

The post that I'm referring to is the post by me on this page of this discussion-thread, that starts with the words:

…In other words : why am I in that body ?

...the question that I was answering.

My apologies for that. I didn't mean to post it to the wrong discussion-thread.

I invite any moderators to delete that posting, above on this page, from this discussion thread.

(But my post on a previous page of this discussion-thread was intended for this thread, and was an answer to the question asked by the original-poster to this thread.)

Michael Ossipoff

I don't know why I'm bothering here, since you've clearly copied this from a previous post, but it is perfect example of how brains are wired differently. The idea of science-worship is laughable to me, but I have come to except that a lot of people never realise that there is a very big difference between being told x=y, and being shown, logically, that x=y. I used to feel sorry for them, missing out on all the wonder and amazement one gets from studying science (it starts very young and maybe if you miss the boat it becomes impossible (maybe I missed the "leap of faith" boat in a similar way)) but now... well, ignorance is bliss, as they say.

I have tried writing poetry, but this happens -

We're just a happening in time and space
Or what happens when these happenings connect
We're just an engram of a memory trace
Evolution's unintended side effect
We're just characters in search of a stage
We're just an amalgamation of sense and intellect
We're just ink on a page

We're just a pile of energy and matter
Or the feelings that this pile can evoke
We're just complex, polysynaptic chatter
Evolution's little self-awareness joke
We're just characters in search of a plot
We're just an accumulation of interstellar smoke
We're just, therefore we're not

I don't have a problem getting relationships started, the early parts are fun for me, I love being with a woman and I love sex. I think I put it best in an earlier post - it's like there's not enough "me" there for someone to form I deep connection with and as I get older this has become more important to me. I feel like I'm missing out.

it's like there's not enough "me" there for someone to form I deep connection with — daldai

The nihilst view of personality is perhaps that it is an accumulation of imperfections?

Once again, I don't have a world-view. Nihilism is the absence of a world-view. I really did think this might be the one forum where I didn't have to explain this. If you adopt a world-view you cannot end up a nihilist. If you don't you can only end up a nihilist. Maybe it's because you are used to people using the term as some kind of badge of honour. For me it's an accidentally self-inflicted psychological condition that I want to cure.

Nihilism is the absence of a world-view. I really did think this might be the one forum where I didn't have to explain this. — daldai

But perhaps nihilist thinking has certain psychological effects.

"becoming a vegetarian" - you mean take something I already do for personal reasons, convince myself it's for altruistic reasons so I can feel superior to other people who do absolutely nothing wrong and pretend I'm making the world a better place when I know, deep down, that my actions are having no positive effect what-so-ever... yeah, I'll give it go.

@ daldai

Isn't the observation that an overly rational outlook makes you act in a way which tries to negate that very observation an indication of inherent meaning? You yourself conclude your life is meaningless and, like many nihilists, this creates a sense of despair which makes you seek change.

If you hold scientific realism to be true, you are bound to be aware that what makes us act isn't something independent of the rest of the universe. You purport to have difficulty in engaging in a meaningful relationship so this is not something which is working out for your Darwinian "fitness". We're also social animals and it is my view that we need a degree of (meaningful) social interaction.

To me it's a form of mind / body dualism to value rational thought over "mere" biological functioning to such a degree that the schism we hereby create turns into a form of dissonance. The power of rational thought lies in being capable to form an abstract representation of our environment and the empirical method gives us a means to correlate this symbolic interpretation with our physical environment, giving us much control over said environment. Yet somehow, thinking that life has no meaning, that we're merely here to procreate, that the rational is all there is, that we're deterministic automata, etc. doesn't suffice to convince ourselves we have ourselves figured out to the same degree as we claim to have figured out our environment. Unlike other animals, humans don't seem to evoke a sense of contentedness very easily if the basic requirements for survival are fulfilled and it's this trait which evokes a lot of specific human behaviour (among them suffering from existential crises).

What good does it do if someone claims to have a superior handle on it's environment (objective truth) while that believe has detrimental repercussion for it's existence? As far as I know it's still an emotional value which makes us capable of selecting a preferred outcome when we're rationally computing our environment, if not we'd just be computing away. If you claim that we already have enough information to fully convince ourself we know how we work (where doing so is presuming on applicable knowledge we have yet to gain in the future) your abstract representation of the environment doesn't correlate with the actual physical environment.

There's no such thing as reason / rationality which is wholly disconnected from the rest of the universe.
The new atheists vehemently attack religion, those who propose that free will doesn't exist generally run in circles to make it appear there's an objective reason to keep some form of morality, a lot of science is undertaken for the betterment of mankind or out of sheer curiosity, etc. You yourself have gotten to the point where your rationality falls short and, out of emotional necessity, you have set yourself a meaningful goal to do something about that. You're now trying to have some meaningful social interaction yet you seem to fail to observe that you have already solved your conundrum partially because your view is clouded with an overly rational bias, a bias which appears to stem from a natural mechanism which is used to gain a better understanding / more control of our environment.

Reality is that which is hardest to deny, fleeing into nihilism out of insecurity might just show a fear of engaging your environment properly. If you really value science and rationality you'll acknowledge that, what makes you act is something which is part of the natural world. The observation that what you know about what is governing your behaviour isn't something which can be explained easily in a scientific manner does not mean it doesn't exist. The idea that we might be capable of doing so in the future shouldn't be used as a justification to wait until that time has come, any justification which merely functions as a means to negate the most coherent and intimate knowledge you are able to perceive of yourself in the present is indeed an existential justification fallacy.

I don't have a religious view of science. I don't have a religious view of anything. Also, the cultural malaise you talk about has nothing to do with science, which the vast majority of the world's population still give no importance to, although they gladly accept its benefits. Science is hardly taking over, if anything we are, now moving in the opposite direction. The cultural malaise is the natural response to how empty and meaningless western culture has become - it's about x-factor not x-factorial.

Once again, I don't have a world-view. — daldai

You do; part of it involves:

For me it's an accidentally self-inflicted psychological condition that I want to cure. — daldai

You consider a self-inflicted psychological condition something undesirable.

"So, you're a "nihilist" in the sense that there is no meaning "out there", but not a "nihilist" in the sense that there is no meaning whatsoever? Because, to be sure, the former is coherent while the latter is not."

I'm not entirely sure what you "mean" (if it's existentialism, then I never really bought that to be honest) which is the problem talking about this subject. That's why I started to think, not about "the meaning of life" but "existential justification" (defined in a previous post). Instead of "life has no meaning, should I just kill myself?" you get "existence can't be justified, so what?" In this way, and others, I have come to terms with this on a personal level. I don't have a problem with what the truth is, I'd just like to forget it.

I would agree with pretty much all you've said there, except that I've never felt that there should be objective meaning in the universe. I don't even think that there should be less suffering in the world, for example, although, like most of us I really, really wish there was and we had more wealth-equality etc. but I except the world as it is, with a strong sense of bitterness and helplessness.

I don't feel any existential angst either. All I know is that my lack of a belief-system has left me feeling isolated from other people when it comes to building strong relationships. You could say that having a belief-system is part of our evolution. I'm sure you can see the advantage that it gave to early tribes over tribes that didn't have one and there must be a genetic precursor to this in pre-human history - lot's of mammals rely on cooperation and structure. Maybe it's a genetic mutation in my brain that has left me with this deficiency. I don't know, but it would explain why I seem to be suffering from such a severe form of nihilism that even other nihilists, reformed or otherwise, find it hard to understand me.

There's no such thing as "nihilist thinking", it's just thinking with an open-mind and only believing what you know is true. Then everything you know is true all fits neatly into place with no contradictions. Nihilism is the psychological effect.

There's no such thing as "nihilist thinking", it's just thinking with an open-mind and only believing what you know is true. Then everything you know is true all fits neatly into place with no contradictions. Nihilism is the psychological effect. — daldai

Have you tried psychedelics at low & high doses? I feel it is well established in the psychonaut community that meaning can only be found beyond the reaches of reason, the very reason you use to establish yourself as "a nihilist". I don't care what you say you are or how you arrive at that conclusion because what you are doing is using terms/concepts to infer truth/probability about yourself or states of affairs in the world. These terms/concepts are inherently limited in a simultaneously linked formation with the limitations of the human brain, therefore there is no way to know for certain what concepts in themselves are or what they say about you or the world. This all becomes directly apparent on usually higher doses of psychedelics, but with some lower doses too. From aldous huxley's famous novel:

"To others again is revealed the glory, the infinite value and meaningfulness of naked existence, of the given, unconceptualized event. In the final stage of egolessness there is an "obscure knowledge" that All is in all - that All is actually each"

"Red books, like rubies; emerald books; books bound in white jade; books of agate; of aquamarine, of yellow topaz; lapis lazuli books whose color was so intense, so intrinsically meaningful, that they seemed to be on the point of leaving the shelves to thrust themselves more insistently on my attention"

Of course, from reading this. You seem like a stubborn type who would refuse this so that he can cherish the vicious cycle he likes to think he is in so that he can point the blame outwards away from himself without actually taking the courage to see outside of his pathetically confined thoughts.

Thanks for that, I read it a few times and I'm still a little confused. There's a lot of confusion all round, here. I am trying to explain myself as clearly as possible but it's not proving easy. All I will say here is that I don't overvalue rationalism, if I could be a chimpanzee I would. And, I haven't fled to nihilism because I'm scared of my emotional side. I love my emotional side it's just (I know I'm repeating myself so apologies to anyone bored enough to actually be following this) that I'm starting to notice that that emotional side is not being reciprocated by friends and lovers and it could be because they are raw emotions without an ego behind them. Maybe it's my drive to discover and not create that has done this. Do people discover themselves? Or, do people create themselves?

I don't think the rationalisation of an emotional state amounts to a world-view

it's like there's not enough "me" there for someone to form I deep connection with — daldai

You're claiming that every woman you have a relationship with says this?

except that I've never felt that there should be objective meaning in the universe. — daldai

Then what does nihilism mean to you, and why is it a problem?

All I know is that my lack of a belief-system has left me feeling isolated from other people when it comes to building strong relationships. — daldai

Why do you think you have no belief system? You have beliefs, right? You create those beliefs base on a certain approach (scientific materialism from what you've said), right? Are you sure you don't mean "religion" when you say "belief system"?

Also, what makes you think that it is your philosophical beliefs that is isolating you from others? Could it be that there are other factors? You say you have a "strong sense of bitterness and helplessness". Might that be it? Have you convinced yourself that bitterness and helplessness are the rationally appropriate responses to how you see the universe to be? I'd like to hear how you came to those conclusions, because I think it's based on poor reasoning.

I don't know, but it would explain why I seem to be suffering from such a severe form of nihilism that even other nihilists, reformed or otherwise, find it hard to understand me. — daldai

I don't think there are levels of severity to nihilism. Perhaps you need to explain exactly what you think you mean by the word. I suspect that I understand you pretty well. Maybe, maybe not. We can keep talking and figure that out.

Frankly, I don't think you're having a philosophical crisis (or at least nothing you've said to me indicates that you are), I think you're lonely and dissatisfied, and have just assumed that had something to do with your belief system.

Yeah It's hard for me to explain myself at times, I guess I'm some what of an existentialist who feels there's more objective reason to be so then many would easily admit to. Also I have this tendency to try and point to how people might be able to verify things for themselves instead of laying out a theory which can be intellectually (dis)agreed with (I'm more psychologically oriented).

And I might have projected a stereotype of a nihilist onto you, a lot of nihilist seem to use perceived meaninglessness as a rationalisation / excuse to refrain from actually caring for things, that latter bit certainly doesn't apply to you because you appear to care a lot for interpersonal relationship.... which is why I'm dumbfounded you consider yourself a nihilist. If you want a functional relationship and are able to extrapolate other people wanting something similar, what does it then matter that doing so might be considered "meaningless" from a particular scientific standpoint?

I can relate to having difficulty in really "connecting" with people, a lot of things which matter a great deal to others I find to be superficial and I am of the opinion that a lot of people are operating on very nihilist presuppositions (I might be somewhat anhedonic but the whole "YOLO" just doesn't do it for me). Also, raw emotions can be confrontational for others but with me, any showing of strong raw emotions (where I usually have great self control) is usually because I care about what I'm doing at that very moment, which would be opposite if I would be of the opinion that things are meaningless.

Isn't it rather that there's lots which has meaning for you (like discovering new things) but that, what you value is just not what most people value? Also, it would probably be a little off putting for people if you carry your "nihilism" as a banner while, in reality, you're more then capable of actually giving a f#ck.

A lot have said something similar, but it's more of a general conclusion. Of course, I'm far from certain about this but when you've lived for 43 years and a pattern keeps repeating itself you have to ask yourself "what's different about me?". After all, women fall in love with serial killers and paedophiles so it has to be a pretty big difference and I honestly can't think of anything else.

I have beliefs in the sense that "I believe that it's going to rain this afternoon" but absolute belief in anything that I don't know to be true, I really don't think so and this is what I mean by nihilism. Again, I can't stress this enough, it seems, but I don't have a "certain approach" - the universe approached me and said "go on, make sense of this."

Oh come on, it's perfectly normal to feel bitter and helpless in the face of what's going on in the world, no reasoning involved, and that's something I know I'm not alone in, so that's not leaving me isolated.

I never said I was having a philosophical crisis. I don't have a philosophy so how can it be in crisis. Also I've admitted from the start that my motivation here is not a sudden philosophical revelation that "nothing is real", but a gradual awareness of how I exist in relation to other people and a general desire to change in order to experience more out of life than I am currently capable of.

I don't have a religious view of science. — daldai

I took this statement to have a quasi-religious view:

For me, what we experience and observe is the universe, unless you want to get into the whole brain in a vat thing. Modern science describes this almost completely and it doesn't require faith. We are not told science, like we are told religion, we are shown science. Every piece of it is a little part of how the universe works and the fact it all fits together so perfectly and has given us all this amazing technology is proof - you don't have to believe medicine is going to cure you in order for it to cure you. — daldai

It's true to an extent - but then, people are cured by placebos, purely because they believe they will be, and others aren't cured by medicine, sometimes because they believe they won't be. We are indeed 'shown science' but the universe we experience by means of the senses (which includes scientific instruments) may still only be an aspect of the whole. There are still many things about 'how it all works together' that we don't understand in the least, and yet it does. When Brian Cox waxes eloquent about The Cosmos, sometimes feel as though he thinks that science explains how it all works, but it only explains very specific things about it. Science works by exclusion.

So what I meant was, I think you're attributing to science, what used to be attributed to religion, i.e. the guide to what sensible people ought to think. It is very much a product of the Enlightenment. It has a lot going for it, but in some fundamental way, it's still a belief system. That's what I am getting at. You say 'you don't have a worldview', but that's because your looking through it, not at it.

I'm starting to realise that explaining this is proving pretty much impossible. You'd have to get to know me for long enough to realise you could never to know me.

I have beliefs in the sense that "I believe that it's going to rain this afternoon" but absolute belief in anything that I don't know to be true, I really don't think so and this is what I mean by nihilism — daldai

What is an absolute belief, and why should the lack of having one be a problem? Why do you expect anyone should have them?

Again, I can't stress this enough, it seems, but I don't have a "certain approach" - the universe approached me and said "go on, make sense of this." — daldai

So when you're trying to figure out the answer to a question, you just pick random answers? I doubt it. I suspect that you have a system, conscious or not, by which you test possible answers and determine, at least provisionally, which one is the best answer for the moment. You almost assuredly employ heuristics, even if you don't use formal methodology. That's what conscious humans do.

Oh come on, it's perfectly normal to feel bitter and helpless in the face of what's going on in the world, no reasoning involved, and that's something I know I'm not alone in, so that's not leaving me isolated. — daldai

It's common enough to not be abnormal, but it isn't the only logical option. That's up to you, be as bitter as you want to be, but I doubt it has anything to do with philosophy. If you don't want to be bitter, you don't have to be. That's also up to you.

Regarding if it's why you're isolated, you can dismiss what I've said, but as a rule, people don't gravitate toward bitterness, and bitterness isn't something that is likely to drive you toward people, so it seems pretty logical that it might be a factor, and maybe even a big one.

I never said I was having a philosophical crisis. I don't have a philosophy so how can it be in crisis. — daldai

What do you think nihilism is, if not a philosophy? There's a whole entry on it in the internet encyclopedia of philosophy. I mean you can just say "I don't have a philosophy" all you want, but you clearly think that whatever you imagine that "nihilism" is, it's the only logical way to think about things, and that you wish that wasn't the case (you ask for a cure to it). I'm telling you that you're wrong, and that the "cure" is to stop being wrong. That means that you stop hiding behind "I can't explain it". That's a sign that you haven't thought it out clearly. Maybe you can't explain it because it doesn't make sense? If it doesn't make sense, then you should stop believing it.