It would make sense if it was symmetrical but the point he was making isn't symmetrical. His point was that for most of those 75 years one side (the Israeli side) made overtures for peace and the other side never took any deals, even when they lost over and over in armed conflict and were in a position where if they took it, they would have gotten much of what they wanted — schopenhauer1
involved the Palestinians having no to little self-determination and was only concerned with Israeli security. — Benkei
And finally, Israel always wanted to carve up the land in such a way and control Palestinian movement that it would not result in a viable state for the Palestinians. — Benkei
Wonder why :rofl: you make that sound like it was not relevant to be concerned about security. Take a deal and build on it. As Maher said, how’s the other way working? — schopenhauer1
They were given large tracts of land but not 100%. It’s called compromise. — schopenhauer1
So I knew you were going to bring up the Likud part there.. — schopenhauer1
So I knew that again @schopenhauer1 would again totally sideline the crucial factor of just who is in power in Israel (or in Gaza, for that matter).His point was that for most of those 75 years one side (the Israeli side) made overtures for peace and the other side never took any deals — schopenhauer1
It's dumb shit like this that's tiresome. It's not Israelis that regularly get massacred en masse. — Benkei
Why should an oppressed people give up land that Israel has no right to? There's a UN partition plan. — Benkei
There are even the borders of 1967 where Israel has stolen land, a crime of aggression that was punished with hanging at Nuremberg, that the Palestinians are willing to accept. Which is already a huge concession. — Benkei
It is Israel, especially under Likud, that refuses to compromise and has been slowly strangling the Palestinians. Once they are done with Gaza - and they will be done when they fully occupy it and it basically doesn't exist anymore because all infrastructure is gone then they will turn to the West Bank and eat and eat away. But you know, keep writing dumb shit. It's entertaining at least. — Benkei
That some of those rights are actually inalienable and not subject to compromise, that having a fucking moral backbone requires you to not tell victims to give in to the demands of their aggressors. — Benkei
So I knew that again schopenhauer1 would again totally sideline the crucial factor of just who is in power in Israel (or in Gaza, for that matter). — ssu
It's Likud and it's right-wing allies that is in power, not the Labour party, not the Kadima party. — ssu
It was the Labour party that made the Oslo accords happen (with Rabin, who later was assassinated).
It was Labour party that withdrew from Lebanon (with Ehud Barak as prime minister). — ssu
There was the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative , reindorsed 2007 and 2017, which was immediately embraced by the Palestinians, by Arafat (and later by Abbas). And notable, included in the 57 Arab and Muslim states is also Iran. The Arab states, those that are still technically at war with Israel (like Kuwait etc) would normalize their relations if Israel withdrew from the 1967 occupied territories and accepted the two-state solution. Distribution of territory could also be discussed.
Hence it's the typical bias to say that Israel has here being offering peace, which has been rejected by Palestinians... as if it hasn't also happened the other way around. And naturally that basically even Iran would be OK with the 1967 borders is sidelined because they are the "Mad Mullahs" wanting to destroy all of Israel. — ssu
Hence it's the typical bias to say that Israel has here being offering peace, which has been rejected by Palestinians... as if it hasn't also happened the other way around. And naturally that basically even Iran would be OK with the 1967 borders is sidelined because they are the "Mad Mullahs" wanting to destroy all of Israel.
The fact is that it's the moderate lines that aren't tolerated. Israel has killed for example those Palestinian leaders that have been promoting the two state solution. And let's not forget that Bibi supported Hamas first (in order to weaken the PA). Non-compromising zealots just love if the other side is also made of non-compromising zealots: pretty easy to explain then why a negotiated settlement isn't possible. — ssu
Accompanied? You think the peace initiative and the Hamas Passover attack were coordinated?You mean the "offer" accompanied by a Hamas terror attack on Passover? — schopenhauer1
RAMALLAH, West Bank Sept 26 (Reuters) - Saudi Arabia's first ambassador to the Palestinians described a decades-old Arab land-for-peace offer on Tuesday as a pillar of any normalization of ties with Israel, an apparent attempt to signal that Riyadh has not abandoned the Palestinian cause.
The ambassador, Nayef Al-Sudairi, told reporters in Ramallah his visit "reaffirms that the Palestinian cause and Palestine and the people of Palestine are of high and important status and that in the coming days there will be a chance for a bigger cooperation between Saudi Arabia and the state of Palestine".
Referring to the prospect of normalisation with Israel, Al-Sudairi said: "It is the normal thing among nations to have peace and stability." "The Arab initiative, which Saudi Arabia presented in 2002, is a fundamental pillar of any upcoming agreement," he added.
Same reason why Hamas is starting to get more support.I mean, now we are just treading over the same ground, where we forget why someone like Netanyahu started getting more support. — schopenhauer1
That was PRIOR to the Hamas attacks in October: Saudi Arabia was still holding on to the Arab peace initiative. So your wrong to argue that this "offer" was something in the distant past. — ssu
Same reason why Hamas is starting to get more support. — ssu
It was 12 midnight and I had an important meeting the next morning. Should I spend more time trying to convince someone on here that a comedian was wrong about some of the basic history of my country when they just don't want to believe that? I mean this article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale is all anyone would need, but then I'd just be inviting more off-topic conversation. — Baden
Ariel Sharon rejected the Arab initiative as a "non-starter" because it required Israel to withdraw to pre-June 1967 borders. Simple as that.I'm just wondering, is there a strategy here, cynical one? Perhaps you can reference articles why Israel didn't take it... — schopenhauer1
(see here)Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences:
Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
Hamas isn't Isis.One wants the 600s it seems all over again, and has shown that they don't mind ending things all around them in that goal. — schopenhauer1
Indeed.but the actions that makes it seem like people are doing a false equivalency when we compare Hamas with say, Likud. — schopenhauer1
(The New York Times, Nov 5th, 2023 )Israel has quietly tried to build international support in recent weeks for the transfer of several hundred thousand civilians from Gaza to Egypt for the duration of its war in the territory, according to six senior foreign diplomats.
Israeli leaders and diplomats have privately proposed the idea to several foreign governments, framing it as a humanitarian initiative that would allow civilians to temporarily escape the perils of Gaza for refugee camps in the Sinai Desert, just across the border in neighboring Egypt.
(Times of Israel, Nov 14th, 2023) Two Israeli lawmakers, one from the ruling Likud party and the other from the opposition Yesh Atid party, have urged the international community to take in Palestinian refugees from the Gaza Strip
In a rare display of cross-party solidarity, Danny Danon (Likud) and Ram Ben-Barak (Yesh Atid) published an op-ed piece for the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday, calling for “countries around the world to accept limited numbers of Gazan families who have expressed a desire to relocate.”
Gaza Deaths Surpass Any Arab Loss in Wars With Israel in Past 40 Years
The death toll reported in Gaza has reached roughly 20,000, according to officials in the territory, the heaviest loss on the Arab side in any war with Israel since the 1982 Lebanon invasion.
I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly.
Gaza won’t return to what it was before. We will eliminate everything.
Hamas isn't Isis. — ssu
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
(The New York Times, Nov 5th, 2023 )Israel has quietly tried to build international support in recent weeks for the transfer of several hundred thousand civilians from Gaza to Egypt for the duration of its war in the territory, according to six senior foreign diplomats.
Israeli leaders and diplomats have privately proposed the idea to several foreign governments, framing it as a humanitarian initiative that would allow civilians to temporarily escape the perils of Gaza for refugee camps in the Sinai Desert, just across the border in neighboring Egypt.
(Times of Israel, Nov 14th, 2023) Two Israeli lawmakers, one from the ruling Likud party and the other from the opposition Yesh Atid party, have urged the international community to take in Palestinian refugees from the Gaza Strip
In a rare display of cross-party solidarity, Danny Danon (Likud) and Ram Ben-Barak (Yesh Atid) published an op-ed piece for the Wall Street Journal on Tuesday, calling for “countries around the world to accept limited numbers of Gazan families who have expressed a desire to relocate.”
Of course, the smaller political parties are quite open about their demands on expelling the Palestinians out of Judea and Samaria too. — ssu
Seems like for you they are all just one bunch.So are you splitting hairs on who is more barbaric? Are they for the 800s? Again this looks kind of 600s to me: — schopenhauer1
Yes, Palestians can go to Jordan, Egypt and all other places in the Middle East. Why are they making it so difficult for themselves?Hamas can give up the hostages and give up the fight too. That is an option, is it not? Yes or no? — schopenhauer1
Yes, Palestians can go to Jordan, Egypt and all other places in the Middle East. Why are they making it so difficult for themselves? — ssu
I've listened a lot to Robert Wright on various issues, it's good listening. I'll listen to it and comment it.On a side note, this was one of the better conversations I have seen in regards to what is happening and where it might be going. — schopenhauer1
Being sarcastic, as you are the one asking if islamist resistance group will just give up the fight. — ssu
So similarly, You think the Irgun would just have given up too at the British and "come to their senses", had just "dealt with it" and "moved on" (as your favorite Bill Maher says)? As if at some point they would understand that there couldn't be an Israel as an homeland for Jews, but they simply have to coexist with the Arabs in Palestine under the benevolent leadership of the British Mandate? — ssu
A zionist terrorist like Menachem Begim wouldn't have done that. He would have continued the fight, even if the UK had made Mandatory Palestine priority number one and sent additional 100 000 troops more to deal with the Jewish insurgency. He would have kept trying, knowing well that there was the Balfour declaration, there was the Holocaust and that they can be successful at some point. — ssu
Thomas Friedman made quite rational remarks. 'Bibism', as he coined, has been now a disaster. And it should be understood that this will go on, if the assumption is that Israel can continue a perpetual low-intensity war with the occasional "mowing of the lawn". Advocates of the perpetual war won't give safety they say they are so in favor of. And any "final solution" type of policy will just alienate Israel. — ssu
Thanks for the vids. — Baden
So the Jews experienced a Holocaust in Europe with many displaced persons, many times the Jews going back were faced with continued hostilities from populations, etc. But don't worry, if they try to make a state of it in Israel, the same Europeans will call foul and say, "You better not do that either, or we will root for the Palestinians to push you into the sea there as well!". — schopenhauer1
Straw man. Nobody has argued for this. — Benkei
A zionist terrorist like Menachem Begim wouldn't have done that. He would have continued the fight, even if the UK had made Mandatory Palestine priority number one and sent additional 100 000 troops more to deal with the Jewish insurgency. He would have kept trying, knowing well that there was the Balfour declaration, there was the Holocaust and that they can be successful at some point. — ssu
During the first six weeks of the war in Gaza, Israel routinely used one of its biggest and most destructive bombs in areas it designated safe for civilians, according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.
The video investigation focuses on the use of 2,000-pound bombs in an area of southern Gaza where Israel had ordered civilians to move for safety. While bombs of that size are used by several Western militaries, munitions experts say they are almost never dropped by U.S. forces in densely populated areas anymore.
according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.
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