That's a red herring, since the situation with God isn't the same. Vice is punishment for itself, and virtue is reward in itself. If someone rapes, etc. then he will get punished, by other people, and by the damage his crime does on his own soul. People punish themselves, and its righteous that we are so constituted such that evil leads to destruction. — Agustino
No, it's not at all just to act police. But Justice is part of Goodness.A God who created the world just in order to act police. Can that really be Christ's message? — Beebert
So if you don't believe in free will, then you refuse to accept the Christian conception of the world, and thus you cannot condemn the Christian God in good faith if you don't at least accept the framework of Christianity.I believe not in Free will. — Beebert
Yeah, what's bad about punishing immorality? That sounds like something great to me."So what? No man if important. But immorality will still be punished " — Beebert
I don't see a question. — Agustino
So if you don't believe in free will, then you refuse to accept the Christian conception of the world, and thus you cannot condemn the Christian God in good faith if you don't at least accept the framework of Christianity. — Agustino
Yeah, what's bad about punishing immorality? That sounds like something great to me. — Agustino
No, but if he wants to criticise the Christian God for allowing evil, then he cannot deny free will, cause free will is an essential aspect of the Christian framework. This in effect means that he's not even criticising the Christian God.Accepting the "Christian" conception of the world makes you a Christian. Clearly one can condemn the validity of a position without holding to be true the position's framework. — Heister Eggcart
Ok.Because morality exists as a result of God's existence, his essence which is to create. God facilitates evil's presence in the world, and so he is ultimately responsible for that evil. This does not, however, remove the problem of evil from us - our actions still carry weight, but such weighted actions need not have ever been were God not to be at all. — Heister Eggcart
Well I don't find the video particularly meaningful to the problem of free will and theodicy. I don't feel God asks you to do something that is harmful to you.A man needn't ask outright for a substantive answer, such is a subtle expectation, which is why I asked for more substance, seeing as you didn't understand the video. — Heister Eggcart
The fact that God knows how you will use your free will does NOT mean you're condemned to a certain destiny. You still have free will and you will choose, however God is aware of what you will freely choose. This isn't to say that he controls it, or determines it in any way. He doesn't. Knowing something isn't the same with causing it to be so.Ons part of Christianity says free will is basically the Most important doctrine. Another part says predestination is. — Beebert
It is quite clear actually if you study Apostolic Tradition, use your reason and read Scripture.it seems like God and christianity should make itself more Clear in things. — Beebert
Well yeah, you're not the first to say that: "Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!" Isaiah 45:15. So this is what Christians are already aware of. Come up with something new!He appears to be more absent than present. — Beebert
But you seem to have a very rationalistic/Kantian position with regards to morality. — Agustino
I might as well add that this ultra-rationalism with regards to morality is quite a "modern" invention — Agustino
Why is it immoral for people to die in an earthquake? I'd say that's amoral, but not immoral, for to claim it is immoral would be to claim that the earthquake is a moral agent.Natural evil has been a problem for the theist for thousands of years and has become ever more problematic with the advent of modern biology and evolutionary theory. — Thorongil
No, but if he wants to criticise the Christian God for allowing evil, then he cannot deny free will, cause free will is an essential aspect of the Christian framework. This in effect means that he's not even criticising the Christian God. — Agustino
Ok. — Agustino
Well I don't find the video particularly meaningful to the problem of free will and theodicy. I don't feel God asks you to do something that is harmful to you. — Agustino
And he's criticising the Christian God based on his belief that we don't have free will? :s That makes no sense, because according to the Christian God, we do have free will. So if he wants to criticise the Christian God - and not some other God - then he should take the contents of revelation as presented.?? Beebert doesn't adhere to free will. I don't believe he or anyone else is suggesting that, at the very least, Christians do not believe in free will themselves. — Heister Eggcart
X-) I like to keep you in suspense...There's just enough substance in this reply for me to in turn write this reply and...nothing more, hmm...this exchange is definitely molto produttivo. — Heister Eggcart
I'm not quite sure what God Himself is. The Trinity is a logical contradiction, I'd doubt that our finite human reason could comprehend God. God is unknowable and incomprehensible in Himself. Now, being separated from God is being damned - and that's no action of God's, it is what you yourself will.Yes, I think he does. He, as being itself, makes you be and then forces you into making the choice of whether you then want to follow him or not. If you say no, you're damned. If you say yes, all's well then, it is hoped. — Heister Eggcart
That's false, it will be your will, that's why God has given you free will, and you're formed in the image of God.But the key is that you are told that you can choose, but in the end your will won't be done as God's will is above yours. — Heister Eggcart
:s :s :s He tried to come up with it? Don't kid yourself, Boheme, Eckhart, Pseudo-Dyonisyus etc. have already thought through that way before Berdyaev.There is a reason att one of your great philosophers Berdyaev tried to come up with a solution to this immense problem by his idea of the ungrund of uncreated freedom — Beebert
No, I actually don't.but you dont see the imescapable contradiction in this : Namely that God is the prime mover, the one who willed my existence without my possible approval, alone in knowing my fate already before I was Born. Seriously, use your Brain here. Dont you see the absurdity in this? — Beebert
He addressed a strawman.Didnt you read the article of Schopenhauer that addressed this problems? — Beebert
Because He is a hidden God.Why does he hide himself? — Beebert
No. Plate tectonics are the cause of the Earthquake.Is God the cause of the earthquake? — Beebert
No, because you threw the stone, and you are a moral agent. The stone can't throw itself. If it could, then yes, a stone knocking someone's head would be amoral.If I throw a Stone at someone and that someone dies, then are you suggesting that the act is amoral rather than immoral because the stone is not a moral agent? — Beebert
That depends it's not as simple as you put it out to be. Eckhart for example takes the Godhead to be a different referent than God. You overly simplify, the same way Schopenhauer does in that essay. That's why what you're saying is such a non-sequitur and so crude.Berdyaev thought it was OUTSIDE of God, something God was even born of and didnt have power over. — Beebert
:s where do you take this from?even though he is the greatest of all mystics. — Beebert
He wasn't officially condemned as a heretic, some of his writings however were.Yes and Eckehart was thought of by many as a heretic — Beebert
It absolutely is, because the things he addressed there are misunderstandings of actual Christian views.No it was no strawman Schopenhauer addressed. — Beebert
I would if you have more specific questions. It would be hard for me to guess what you need enlightenment on, and if I were to address each and every one of S's points there, and correct the way he lays out the issues, it would take me a very long post. So specifics would be helpful.Crude? Why so? Tell me more. Enlighten me, because you obviously know the truth as a Christian. — Beebert
Why do you suppose I should know how the earthquake fits into God's plan? :sHow does earthquakes fit Into God's plan? Are they a result of the fall or just something God lets happen for some strange reason? — Beebert
And he's criticising the Christian God based on his belief that we don't have free will? :s That makes no sense, because according to the Christian God, we do have free will. — Agustino
I like to keep you in suspense... — Agustino
I'm not quite sure what God Himself is. The Trinity is a logical contradiction, I'd doubt that our finite human reason could comprehend God. God is unknowable and incomprehensible in Himself. — Agustino
Now, being separated from God is being damned - and that's no action of God's, it is what you yourself will. — Agustino
Sure, so? If he wants to criticise the Christian God on moral matters, then he should take the moral framework that Christians hold to, not one that he has invented.But he doesn't believe in the Christian God............................. — Heister Eggcart
Did you get high marks at school just because you had a long time to answer the questions? X-)I know that bullshitting answers can take some time. I have patience, don't worry. — Heister Eggcart
In some regards yes, but not in all of them. With regards to morality - at least the morality we speak about - yes.Yet, you still proclaim to know what he wants of us, and that Beebert and I are wrong and that you (and God) are right. — Heister Eggcart
No, you don't control the general tendencies you or your mind has. But you can still choose to give in to them or resist them. For example, if you're a person who is very tormented by lust, you may not choose that, but you certainly do choose whether you give in to it or not.I think that we have the freedom of choice, but not the freedom to will our will. Because we cannot will our will, we cannot will our will to be, nor even to not be. Presumably only God has the authority to will one's will, which means we've, in fact, no free will in the sense that I can perfectly choose what comes of my being and my will. I don't. And in a world where only God has the authority to will will, we really are just slaves set on a path until our legs tire and we die. — Heister Eggcart
That's a strawman right there. For Christians never meant that your free will is your ability to control what desires you find yourself having, but rather your ability to control whether or not you ACT on those desires.But the will then isnt Free, because I cant will whatever I want to Will — Beebert
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