The problem with incompetence is that incompetent people often end up in charge of things - banks, businesses, corporations, governments. They don't always go under and collapse. Not right away. — Tom Storm

Hmm, that's true, and a blindspot of sorts for my thinking.

I would imagine that the risk with Trump is not his individual competence, but the doors he opens for others based on his impulse to subjugate his enemies and seek retribution. A small mind can unleash great forces, especially if they are the gatekeeper. — Tom Storm

Is this suggesting (i'm enquiring, not side-eyeing, to be clear) that we could expect other bad actors to be implicated? Trump being essentially a patsy?

Is this suggesting (i'm enquiring, not side-eyeing, to be clear) that we could expect other bad actors to be implicated? Trump being essentially a patsy? — AmadeusD

Like most leaders, Trump can't achieve what he wants without allies, supporters, advisors, confidants, etc. I imagine his capacity to choose wisely here will not be good. The previous administration certainly demonstrated this. But who knows what this could bring next time?

My question was more about people using Trump, rather than allying with him but i suppose you are esoterically covering that in giving little credence to his choice-making abilities LOL.

misogynistic, Islamophobic, transphobic and anti-immigration .
— BC

These seem to be hard-to-define, usually-incorrectly-attributed, subjective and naive things to consider... (minus the underlined). — AmadeusD

I carelessly quoted terms I don't especially like.

These terms are clear enough to me. That said, I don't like nouns with the "phobic" suffix. The term "Homophobia" got some use in the 1970s but took off in the following decades. I don't think people have phobias toward religion or towards homosexuals. I think they just dislike homosexuals. [Granted, some people have psycho-sexual hang-ups; some people are afraid that they might be homosexual. That's probably less common where homosexuality is readily accepted. I don't think there is anyone who is afraid he or she might be Moslem.] I prefer a scale with strong identification on the left side, indifference in the middle, and hate on the right side. Same for Islam. "I don't fear islam; I loathe Islam."

"Misogyny" and "anti-immigrant" aren't confusing you, I hope.

Am I noticing a somewhat socially left-leaning element to this forum? — AmadeusD

Oh yes, definitely.

I carelessly quoted terms I don't especially like. — BC

Fair enough.

"Misogyny" and "anti-immigrant" aren't confusing you, I hope. — BC

None of them confuse me - It's their application that's the problem. But this seems clear to you also :)

Oh yes, definitely. — BC

Ok, cool. Not just me then LOL.

If there is one thing predictable about Trumpism is just how unpredictable it is, and how fast change can happen. Look how quickly Republicans who opposed him fell in line to do his bidding. Some still think that his incompetence is a hedge against his unchecked impulses, but it is others who are far more capable who are willing to carry out the demands of the child tyrant; and this time plans are already in place to assure there will be no dissent or opposition.

One place to look is how Trumpian conservatism is shaping education and local elections. They may loose some battles but are set to win the war. While it is true that the Christian Right did not start with Trump he has become their champion, helping consolidate their power and further their dream of theocracy. The Claremont/Hillsdale hypocritical elitist intellectuals still think they can pull his strings. Anti-regulation plutocrats think they have an ally. But Trump is only in it for one reason - Trump. His friends became enemies and his enemies friends.

I think it possible that this time around he will be more overt in his alliances with other autocratic world leaders. A new world order that is only a few steps away from a new world disorder, chaos, and war.

How much do you expect and or fear that a strong fascist moment could be organized within the next 5 years? — BC

I certainly fear it, though I don't know what to expect. I was surprised when Trump won. I have no doubt that he could win again, and I have no doubt that the fascists support him.

But I'm not sure that there's the popular will for fascism to support it. Wouldn't January 6th have worked if there was?

Still -- 5 years is a long time for predictions in the United States. So while I have no expectations I feel some fear of the fascist trends.

My guess (wishful thinking?): the oligarchic-corporatist "neoliberal" establishment (i.e. bankers-military industrialists) is hellbent on keeping a "neofascist" coup d'etat from killing the US hegemonic goose that's still laying the postwar-globalist golden eggs (e.g. currently $32 trillion petrodollar denominated US debt). Simultaneous proxy wars with Russia, Iran & China are the collective counterweight, perhaps for another decade, offsetting what looks like an inevitable American ethnopopulist implosion. No doubt a "superpower" nightmare the world can't wake up from soon enough. :death: :fire:

Wouldn't January 6th have worked if there was? — Moliere

Who says it didn't? 139 current members of Congress voted not to certify the election result. They're still there doing Trump's bidding. The Jan 6th coup attempt is not finished.

Two excerpts from yesterday's Washington Post:

Donald Trump on Tuesday threatened unrest if the criminal charges against him cause him to lose the 2024 election.

Speaking to reporters after an appeals court hearing in which Trump’s lawyers said he should be immune from prosecution for trying to overturn the 2020 election, Trump claimed without evidence that he was being prosecuted because of polls showing him leading President Biden. He warned that if the charges succeed in damaging his candidacy, the result would be “bedlam.”

“I think they feel this is the way they’re going to try and win, and that’s not the way it goes,” Trump said. “It’ll be bedlam in the country. It’s a very bad thing. It’s a very bad precedent. As we said, it’s the opening of a Pandora’s box.”

On the same day, the headline story was "Violent political threats surge as 2024 begins, haunting American democracy

On Wednesday, bomb threats forced evacuations, closures or stepped-up security measures at more than a dozen state capitols, in Connecticut, Georgia, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Wisconsin, Hawaii, Maine, Oklahoma, Illinois, Idaho, South Dakota, Alabama, Alaska, Maryland and Arizona.

...Steven Levitsky, a professor of government at Harvard University who studies democracies around the world, noted that while violent threats span the political spectrum, the “vast majority” come from activists and others on the far right. Crucially, those threats are often not discouraged by their representatives in government, he said. Rather, Trump and others have appeared at times to encourage and condone the behavior.

Not far from krystallnacht, at least in spirit, but with 'Liberals' and 'the Deep State' as targets.

Not far from krystallnacht — Wayfarer

uhhhh......
Krystallnacht was embodied in:

"Jewish homes, hospitals and schools were ransacked as attackers demolished buildings with sledgehammers.[6] Rioters destroyed 267 synagogues throughout Germany, Austria, and the Sudetenland.[7] Over 7,000 Jewish businesses were damaged or destroyed,[8][9] and 30,000 Jewish men were arrested and incarcerated in concentration camps."

All in the pursuit of Ethnonational intimidation.

I'm unsure how to parse your claim other than as either a hyperbole meant to illustrate the hilarity of such radical misinterpretations - or a position so politically partisan as to amount to a form of lying.

But given I do not fall into wild echo-chamber driven narratives perhaps this thread just isn't for me.

Hyperbolic. Note I said 'in spirit' - the demonising of a section of the populaton, 'Liberals' and 'the Deep State' along with bomb threats. It is fascistic, even if not on the same scale as Nazism.

the demonising of a section of the populaton, — Wayfarer

It is fascistic, — Wayfarer

Fair that you're using hyperbole - But if the above lands it in 'fascist' territory I am at a complete loss as to what history books you're reading from i guess.

The demonizing of Republicans/Conservatives as ethical monsters in the last 20 years has much, much more to answer for imo.

The demonizing of Republicans/Conservatives as ethical monsters in the last 20 years has much, much more to answer for imo. — AmadeusD

But the Republican Party has a lot to answer for, doesn't it? After the January 6th atrocity, if the Senate had confirmed the impeachment, Trump's political meddling would be over. As it is, they've re-habilitated him and are continuing to push 'the big lie'. Even the current Speaker, when asked just the other day whether Biden's election was legitimate, would not give an unequivocal answer. They're pursuing a completely groundless impeachment motion against Biden on Trump's bidding, and Trump is once again dominating the Party. And they have allowed that to happen.

For sure, I'm not aligned with either so no issues putting that on the table... IMO both parties have a huge amount to answer for (though, i don't think that's actually the best way to frame a discussion of those problems)

I assume it's clear, but just so it's on record: I think Trump is an incompetent child, ill-fitted to working the desk at a Hotel let alone owning one. So the idea that he was President hits me as a joke. I can't grasp it fully. It is insane that someone of his nature (and stature, socially speaking) could have been elected. So, your concern doesn't miss me - a further Trump term makes certain outcomes very much more likely, and they are undesirable outcomes. I don't think Fascism is one.

The effects of Jan 6 are noted, although, I allow far less weight to them than you do.

However, it seems to me that the exponentially worse results of the BLM riots don't cause the same concern in you, so we're talking different languages I think. The ability for DEI and CRT-driven programs and systems to 'other' people based on a merely perceived political affiliation is absolutely abhorrent and has torn families and communities apart. The current Israel/Hamas thing seems a perfect microcosm of that. I think it is maybe a little misguided to consider those issues not as much a risk as the overt peddling of crap Trump and his mates are up to. I'm assuming they are just more-closely aligned to your vision for the USA. Whcih is fine. Plenty of Repubs who aren't psychopaths probably think that about Trump's vision.

Not far from krystallnacht, at least in spirit, but with 'Liberals' and 'the Deep State' as targets. — Wayfarer

I most sincerely hope we are not heading for any kind of Krystallnacht but some equivalent at some point isn't inconceivable. Krystallnacht was not a spontaneous outburst of hatred. It was an engineered event. Nazi cadre performed the outrages. The January 6 Insurrection was an engineered event. "Volunteers" showed up and performed the desired signs of "resistance to the deep state". Manufacturing an event takes very little away from its effectiveness as propaganda of the deed for the receptive public at large.

I most sincerely hope we are not heading for any kind of Krystallnacht but some equivalent at some point isn't inconceivable. — BC

I agree. But to my mind, taking it seriously as an actual imminent (lets say, within Trump's impending term) possibility is very much misguided. I hope i'm right, but am ready to be wrong and will be sorry if i am.

The January 6 Insurrection was an engineered event. "Volunteers" showed up and performed the desired signs of "resistance to the deep state". Manufacturing an event takes very little away from its effectiveness as propaganda of the deed for the receptive public at large. — BC

I don't deny the fact of this, but i do deny that it instills any real commitment in the population at alrge. Most people wont even vote.

Who says it didn't? 139 current members of Congress voted not to certify the election result. They're still there doing Trump's bidding. The Jan 6th coup attempt is not finished — Wayfarer

The movement Trump is a part of is not finished. It existed prior to Trump incarnating himself as their messiah and is better organized due to his influence. He even delivered on an old promise of the Republicans with Roe v. Wade so the Republicans have a reason to like him -- he's clearly electable, and he gets things done.

But I think it better to look at January 6th as a defeat rather than a success. If he would have had the popular will or the military on his side then things could have gone differently, but since there's organized resistance, they did not succeed at keeping Trump as president.

But I think it better to look at January 6th as a defeat rather than a success. — Moliere

Yes, the abortive coup itself was a defeat. But since then the anti-democratic forces have fought a seemingly successful campaign to rehabilitate themselves.

For a few weeks after Jan 6 it looked like there'd be a bipartisan effort to curb these tendencies, but it unraveled and the GOP seems more firmly than ever on the path towards an entrenched minority rule, as @Count Timothy von Icarus has argued in detail.

Incidentally I think one aspect of fascism that Paxton in his definition from the OP is missing is the disdain for the democratic process.

For a few years now right wing pundits and influencers have adopted the propaganda line that "the US is a republic, not a democracy". This could certainly be taken in a direction which sees the "will of the people", as a metaphysical force, as the main determining factor.

Fascism: Idolatry of the State

This is a pretty interesting take on fascism .

The demonizing of Republicans/Conservatives as ethical monsters in the last 20 years has much, much more to answer for imo. — AmadeusD

I'm uncertain whether there are any Conservatives left, since Bill Buckley died. Conservatives are against the intrusion of government in our lives. Those called "Conservatives" now seem to relish government control, except perhaps when it comes to the ability to acquire and retain money.

Conservatives are against the intrusion of government in our lives. Those called "Conservatives" now seem to relish government control, except perhaps when it comes to the ability to acquire and retain money. — Ciceronianus

The internal contradictions in American versions of conservatism is the tensions between personal freedoms and state’s rights, the 9th and 10th amendment, respectively. The ambiguities between when one can have precedence over the other, allows for all sorts of contradictory policies and positions.

Less governmental intrusion is not a plank of the conservative platform (though conservatives commonly claim it is). Rather it is a trope that gets dragged out on occasion to speak about taxes and environmental regulations, yet goes against their stances on abortion and homosexual rights.

I'm uncertain whether there are any Conservatives left, since Bill Buckley died. Conservatives are against the intrusion of government in our lives. Those called "Conservatives" now seem to relish government control, except perhaps when it comes to the ability to acquire and retain money. — Ciceronianus

Just as with the left, the noisiest (and usually most stupid) prevail in the media and are eagerly picked to be the true representatives by the other side.

I do think that there are the old fashion conservatives, but they are simply muted out by the Trump crowd.

Well. It's a problem, surely. If we have half the population living in utter fantasy and we cannot even agree on facts and furthermore, tensions are rising, then somethings going to happen.

I don't like Trump, I don't like Biden. I think Trump would be worse for the world, though Biden is far, far from being good.

However, and despite my own personal wishes, if Trump is not allowed to run for president, then that could very well lead to something like a civil war.

I still think communism is more likely. Fascism and communism are not far off different actually and we can verify this.

Some related ideas…

We have been conditioned to think of negative aspects of powerful ruling agents such as “fascism”, “authoritarianism”, “imperialism” etc as being primarily descriptive and critical of governments.

However billionaires, international corporations and banks play an enormous (though murky) role, and it keeps getting larger every day.
So powerful are these non-governmental Powers and Lords that a case could be made that most governments are now their servants.

At the very least, the many world governments (with few exceptions) are eager partners of these controlling Billionaires, ready to answer the phone in the middle of the night to please them.
The US government fits this description very closely.

The governments set up shop in plain view, at least in liberal democracies.
They are accountable and usually elected, and give frequent press conferences.

Their Billionaire Lords answer to no one.
They create LLCs and shell companies and play clever games with laws.
Games like “Change Inconvenient Laws”. And “I’m Above the Law”.
And the ever-popular “If You Can’t Beat ‘em, Bribe ‘em”.

These wraiths misrule the world, then disappear like a fart in the wind.
They crouch in the shadows like gangs of vermin.
We are left poor and holding the bag of their shit…

:up: Thanks. Tragically, that about sums it up in a nutshell.

What a crock of idealist poop — Vaskane

Poop-aganda… our steady diet since birth.

Where does a two-ton gorilla crap? Anywhere he wants to.

"One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion. The words [slur for an African-American that begins with “n”] and [slur for a Jewish person that begins with “k”] will once again be heard in the workplace. All the sadism which the academic Left has tried to make unacceptable to its students will come flooding back. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet."
Richard Rorty Achieving Our Country 1998[/quote]
Ironically, although some pundits accuse Trump of trying to destroy Democracy, Fascism seems to be surprisingly popular in democratic societies, where formerly-favored groups long for a return to the glory-days of a monarchy or autocracy (MAGA).

For example, Mussolini's Fascist Party won election by a landslide in a multi-party democracy. Typically, the upper political classes go on the defensive and criticize "political correctness" as reverse tyranny. So yes, history could repeat, even in an economically powerful Democracy with Free Speech laws. Ironically, the Will of The People may lead to their own ruin, when the system becomes unbalanced without loyal opposition. :meh:

"One thing that is very likely to happen is that the gains made in the past forty years by black and brown Americans, and by homosexuals, will be wiped out. Jocular contempt for women will come back into fashion. The words [slur for an African-American that begins with “n”] and [slur for a Jewish person that begins with “k”] will once again be heard in the workplace. All the sadism which the academic Left has tried to make unacceptable to its students will come flooding back. All the resentment which badly educated Americans feel about having their manners dictated to them by college graduates will find an outlet."

That hasn't aged well. The gains made by minorities and LGBTQ aren't even close to being wiped out.

Perhaps, just as fundamentalism (e.g. theocracy) is an antimodernist reaction to failed secularism (e.g. imperialism), autocracy (e.g. fascism) is a populist reaction to failed democracy (e.g. capitalism). :chin:

The gains made by minorities and LGBTQ aren't even close to being wiped out. — RogueAI

Clearly, either you've not been paying attention and/or you're just choking on reactionary grievance. :mask: