Being likable does not make one right.in my opinion, further from the truth; they do not see themselves or others as-they-are-in-reality; that is, with understanding/patience/and in a word, love. — NotAristotle
If we were to clone two human beings, they wouldn't feel like two different persons anymore because their thoughts wouldn't be unique anymore? — Skalidris
Which "I" are you referring to? The notion we have when we are completely awake and conscious? The cloudy version of "I" we sometimes have in dreams? What about people with mental illness, their notion of "I" is completely different, imagine people with split personality, or people with schizophrenia who hear voices. Which "I" are they? I don't think you realize how complex this "I" is, we feel like ourselves when we can access our memory, our feelings, things that we normally access to when we're conscious and awake. I mentioned waking up from fainting in my thread, and the first images and sounds were really different from reality, yet I didn't experience any feelings of weirdness or fear. If I had the same notion of "I" as I do when I'm conscious, I would have felt disoriented and scared. — Skalidris
How do we know that the notion of "I" is related to consciousness?
...
It's the most intuitive one, for sure — Skalidris
If we choose not to trust our intuitions, what rational arguments do we have to say that consciousness is always related to this "I" notion? — Skalidris
And the viewer of the illusion is the illusion itself. An illusion is fooled into thinking itself to be real. That's a heck of a magic trick! Reminds me of someone who said, "Look at him, pretending to be awake!"An illusion in my opinion is a kind of appearance. To say that "consciousness is an illusion" is to say that "there appears to be consciousness, but there actually isn't". — goremand
A lie is an illusion is it not? Well, what misleads more, the lie or the liar? — NotAristotle
Would you define the "consciousness" you say is not an illusion? (...) Maybe that is an unfair question because consciousness may be undefinable. — NotAristotle
why defend consciousness as not an illusion; what's at stake? Why is consciousness not being an illusion important to you? — NotAristotle
And the viewer of the illusion is the illusion itself. An illusion is fooled into thinking itself to be real. That's a heck of a magic trick! — Patterner
Yup. Just adding my voice. NotAristotle askedLike I've told you, I don't subscribe to illusionism, I'm not going to defend the position. — goremand
I would say a couple reasons. First is the same reason it's important to say 1 + 1 = 2, not 3. Second, because having the wrong idea of consciousness' nature will make it much more difficult to figure out how it comes about.Why is consciousness not being an illusion important to you? — NotAristotle
I would add that there are important ways in which consciousness is not an illusion. Emotional, experiential, rational, doxastic content, means something, points toward something true, is important. — NotAristotle
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.