energetic
— jgill

:up:

quick-witted
— jgill

:lol: Come on. — Mikie

:smile:

Perhaps compared to Joe Biden, yes. Trump is at least energetic when talking about himself.

And anyway, usually American debates between candidates is just a "Gotcha!"-seeking moment with the candidates simply speaking pest about the other candidate. Policy hardly comes up. Only perhaps in some 5 second memorized quick lines. And Trump of course has the "best": everything will succeed when he's in charge. Just as like, uh... last time.

They’ll likely fail again in the fall. But they won’t even scratch their heads about it— because they’ll claim it was rigged. The problem is obvious: even against a weak candidate like Biden, independents and most of the American electorate hate Trump, and for very good reason. — Mikie

The big question is how many American will just stay home.

The big question is how many American will just stay home. — ssu

So much as they do and hand Trump a second term it won't be like in 2016 where everyone was assured that Clinton would win. Not only are Democrats and anti-Trump independents (with the exception of Biden apparently) convinced that Trump could win, but they think he's likely to at this point in time. Maybe that will light something under them or maybe not, but it's certainly not an easy decision to make.

Gotta say the De Santis implosion was visible months ago. He’s just such a wooden, unlikeable, self-righteous prick of a guy. The sort of guy, it was said, if the neighbour’s kids kicked a ball over his fence, he’d confiscate it and threaten them. Oh for some real Republican challengers to the Orange Emperor, but this guy was never going to be one of them. (Still reckon Trump’s ‘inevitable’ nomination is going to implode also, but we’ll have to wait and see.)

The big question is how many American will just stay home. — ssu

The more Trump keeps up his ridiculous scare-talk, the bigger the chance of a sizeable protest vote. A lot of the younger electorate hate and fear him, and hate and fear are good antidotes to apathy.

yay, another win for the Dems not because of their policy ideas but because so many people hate Trump. The state of US politics was already bismal under Bush Jr. but this is just getting ridiculous.

:up:

That dumpster fire was billowing a year ago ... my 2 bits from Feb 2023:

I don't think DeSantis will get that far precisely because his reactionary populist – fascistic, racist, mysogynist, public health-denying – policies in Florida amply demonstrate how much scarier he'd be than Individual-1. — 180 Proof

No matter the faults of the Democratic Party, this election will be, as they say it is, a contest between democratic politics, in which anyone may have a voice, and a dictatorship, where everyone must agree with the leader.

:100:

where everyone must agree with the leader. — Wayfarer

Are you sure this isn't just that half the country agree with things you don't - and that's in line with whomever they are seeing as 'leader'?

It seems, when the roles are reversed, the assertion is the same...

It seems, when the roles are reversed, the assertion is the same... — AmadeusD

You’re dead wrong about this moral equivalence. Only one party is supporting a leader who deliberately and demonstratedly attempted to overthrow the result of the last election, who’s minions brought 60 lawsuits against the result, all of which failed. You don’t understand, or don’t want to know, what is at stake - I can’t discern why. It might be cynicism - that all political parties are corrupt - or wishful thinking - that the Republican Party can’t have become this corrupted by one individual. But in either case, you’re mistaken. But I’m not going to debate it with you further, you can believe whatever you like, life is too short for pointless internet arguments.

You have gone from 0-100 and it speaks directly to me earlier comments about polarization.

Nothing you just said has much at all to do with why I asked, or what i asked you about..
I asked you a simple question, importing zero opinion of my own (which you already know doesn't comport with your comments here). I am interested in your answer - I have no debate to ascend to, or even an oppositional opinion to lay out. There is no 'moral equivalence'. It's a psychological question that I'm interested in your answer to.

Please, for the love of Philosophy, stop importing entire belief systems into my posts to avoid answering a simple question. If it is the case that you cannot speak in a political thread without doing so, please let me know immediately as I wont bother asking for your takes anymore. I sought to explore your thought on the matter, and nothing else. Assume whatever you want, but do not lay your assumptions on me. The plain fact is, I am interested as to why you see that psychological condition as one-sided. The facts don't get me there (which I don't deny).

You asked:

Are you sure this isn't just that half the country agree with things you don't - and that's in line with whomever they are seeing as 'leader'? — AmadeusD

That is asserting 'moral equivalence'. That there are 'two sides', and 'one side' just happens to be the one 'I don't agree with'.

Is that not what you were implying?

Winning isn't about who's right or who is fair. Your arguments are irrelevant for the other side and they have their own problems with what "your" side does.

It absolutely, in no-way whatsoever imports a moral question of any kind, in any way.

What i asked was exactly as you quoted - Are you sure this isn't just that half the country agree with teh things you dont (they may be blatantly wrong - it's not relevant) and that what they believe is in line with whomever they see as a leader (who could be a murderous psychopath - it simply doesn't matter to the question i'm asking).

You: Agree with Biden (i assume) and Disagree with Trump (let's assume you're 100% in the right, there's no debate or 'other side' to be seen. I know you do). Therefore, to live under Trump would be to be required to live under a leader you vehemently disagree with on just about everything - which would feel like a Dictator.

Others: Agree with Trump and disagree with Biden. Same as above, in reverse.

Are you sure that your take here:

and a dictatorship, where everyone must agree with the leader. — Wayfarer

is not, in fact, the exact same thing the other side claims is the case, but in reverse? The facts of the matter are literally irrelevant. I want to know hwo you frame that opposedl psychologies when they are claiming the same thing. Most Republicans of the kind you're highlighting believe Biden is the Dictator (and, unless you've lost your mind, there's some extremely minor truck to that if you think the COVID measures were out of line - doesn't matter if you're right, it just explains the psychology of it, in that extremely minor way that it can) for the same reasons.

I literally said nothing that could possibly import the notion that I think you're inaccurate in your position on the facts.

and a dictatorship, where everyone must agree with the leader.
— Wayfarer

is, in fact, the exact same thing the other side claims is the case, but in reverse? The facts of the matter are literally irrelevant. — AmadeusD

The facts are not irrelevant. This is not a hypotherical, like 'the trolley problem' in undergraduate tutorials. Real politics is at stake. Only one side is lead by someone who has tried to subvert the election. It doesn't matter how I or they feel about that. Everyone has a right to their own opinon, but nobody has a right to their own facts. It is a fact that Trump has said he wants to suspend the Constitution, jail his critics and purge the civil service. It is also a fact that neither Joe Biden nor any other Democrat has said any such thing.

Oh mate, this is so difficult.

Once again: I am not, have not, and will not lay out my opinion on this. I am asking you about yours. You seem to be really, seriously, entirely missing the point of what I'm asking here. The facts are completely irrelevant to my question.

It doesn't matter how I or they feel about that. — Wayfarer

Except this is exactly what I'm asking you about. So, yeah, this is literally the only thing that matters. I am not engaging you in a political debate. I am asking you a personal psychological question. If you don't care to answer, that's fine, but is an entirely different response to what you've, so far, jumped headlong into.

It is a fact that Trump has said he wants to suspend the Constitution, jail his critics and purge the civil service. It is also a fact that neither Joe Biden nor any other Democrat has said any such thing. — Wayfarer

Yes. Those things seem to be clearly true. I never denied any of this, or intimated that I did/would (though, as a matter of curiosity I have heard talk from Dems of doing away with the Electoral College... It's no matter, don't get stuck on it. Just in passing).

Real politics is at stake. — Wayfarer

Not in the question I asked. Not quite sure why you're hell-bent on bringing up the most dire and intense version of this. I haven't asked about any of that.

What the heck is going on my dude? This is so bizarre. Let me rephrase the question in a way that is politically expedient, and will massage your political leanings:

Why you think (some)Republicans feel exactly the same way?

So Trump will win New Hampshire tomorrow and will go on to easily win the nomination. Biden will win by mail-in vote, and will easily win the nomination.

The last year of speculation and hand-wringing was a complete waste of time. This was predictable.

I was under the impression it was more-or-less foregone that it was Trump v Biden this year and that the legal pressure on Trump was kind of the only upset to the apple cart.
Was that not the vibe in other quarters?

Yes. Those things seem to be clearly true.

They’re complete lies. These sorts of lies are just another reason people are abandoning the sinking ship that is establishment politics.

But the lies obviously work as we can watch in real time as people repeat them. At this point it’s just a question how well they work.

They’re complete lies. — NOS4A2

Well, no, all four are plainly true. Their implication is another thing. But I'd hazard a differing between us there too.

You have a performative answer to your question with Wayfarer and NOS4A2 answering you and both missing the point. Well done!

I am not engaging you in a political debate. — AmadeusD

Well, look at the thread title. :roll:

My question comes squarely under 'General Discussion', does it not?

I also find that a really odd retort to my having parsed out exactly what I'm asking, through your emotional response.

Can you just let me know fi you don't care to answer the question please? I have no issue with that, if so. It would've just been easier to have an "I don't care to answer" earlier in this exchange :smile:

There's an undercurrent on this forum along the lines of: well, America is f***d, politics is f***d, Trump is just what you're going to get from American politics, and Biden, being a politician, is no different. There's no answer to that argument except for not arguing with it, as it's a pointless exercise.

It would've just been easier to have an "I don't care to answer" earlier in this exchange — AmadeusD

I’m not going to debate it with you further, you can believe whatever you like, life is too short for pointless internet arguments. — Wayfarer

I’m not going to debate it with you further, you can believe whatever you like — Wayfarer

I have no debate to ascend to, or even an oppositional opinion to lay out. — AmadeusD

Once again: I am not, have not, and will not lay out my opinion on this. — AmadeusD

I am not engaging you in a political debate — AmadeusD

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

"I don't care to answer" — AmadeusD

I’m not going to debate it with you further, you can believe whatever you like, life is too short for pointless internet arguments. — Wayfarer

There is no moral equivalence between the two ;)

There's an undercurrent on this forum along the lines of: well, America is f***d, politics is f***d, Trump is just what you're going to get from American politics, and Biden, being a politician, is no different — Wayfarer

There may well be, but unless you can point me to where I said this, intimated this, or said something that could, without insanity, be interpreted as this, in line with the discreet question i asked, I have to assume you're not really trying to do anything but argue with people. Each time i make it clear you've gotten something well wrong (including pointing out hte thread title) you just move to another tactic to make it seem unreasonable. Hard to work with..

Well, no, all four are plainly true. Their implication is another thing. But I'd hazard a differing between us there too.

They’re not only plainly false, they’re obvious lies. And they follow the same pattern of propaganda, namely, “contextomy”.

No.

They’re provable lies, I’m afraid, and on a level that makes newspeak look like child’s-play. But that’s the sort of discourse we’re forced to deal with here.

They aren't, though, that's the thing. Or you'd have demonstrated it by now, I'm sure.

But, as an example - the fact is, Trump quite directly noted that the 'Fraud' of the 2020 election justified the suspension of 'rules' including 'parts of the constitution' via Truth social. This is inarguable. The implication (and motivation, I guess) you could argue - but you wouldn't have much fun I don't think.

This is contextomy. It would be proper to quote in full instead of picking and choose which words you want to include and fill in the blanks with your own. It would be proper to include any clarifications. So there is no fact here.

Ok.

"A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,” ; and

“Our great ‘Founders’ did not want, and would not condone, False & Fraudulent Elections!"

There's your context, and the exact quotes. As noted - inarguable. It is a fact that this was done by Trump. That you do not accept this fact, despite its obtaining, isn't really that interesting.