I’m thinking more of anthropology rather than mysticism here. — Punshhh
A study of human nature and how humanity and civilisation come to terms with human nature.
These terms include the trauma of this realisation and the post traumatic psychological effects.
Regarding the Jewish people they have struggled with exile for at least 2,900 years. This trauma has been repeated and reinforced numerous times since.
In terms of civilisation ‘a people’ is associated with a homeland. A land where their identity and sense of belonging in a world of people’s is rooted. — Punshhh
He doesn't know shit about the subject but insists on posting crap.
Edit: check page 76.
— Benkei
↪tim wood That page is simply proof where you yourself admit you don't know what you're talking about. I didn't say I specifically spoke to you then now did I? Try again. — Benkei
And this in defense of my objecting to someone else cherry-picking some statistics.I don't pretend to any special knowledge of these events. — tim wood
Amen.People in such political threads, even mods, often forget that we are in a philosophy forum — neomac
2) what should the Israelis do? — tim wood
Here's why the issue isn't just about details, it's far more worse.And what the Israelis should do is simply enfranchise the Palestinians by declaring Israel a joint Israeli-Palestinian state - with no doubt a lot of details to be worked out. — tim wood
It appears that ownership of the West Bank falls to Israel - or beyond that is by default Israel's and beyond that not a question with a simple answer. So exactly why should Israel "stop settling the West Bank"?They should start with carrying out the dozens of (legally binding) UNSC resolutions calling them, among other things, to stop settling the West Bank, — Tzeentch
I hold it is at least debatable as to who is creating unlivable conditions in Gaza - maybe the Palestinians have something to do with that? As to the West Bank, I agree. If the Israelis are creating unlivable conditions on the West Bank, then they should both stop and reverse those actions.to stop creating unlivable living conditions on the West Bank and Gaza, — Tzeentch
The war in Gaza - I hold it to be a war and not a genocide - was ignited by Hamas, and Hamas can act to end it. Are the hostages returned? In my opinion it is charitable to suppose Hamas is completely responsible and not others like at least some of the Palestinian people, with encouragement from the neighbors. But at least that means that Hamas being destroyed, the Israelis ought to stop their main military activities - leaving the other actors intact. And Hamas can surrender.They should probably also stop skirting the line of genocide, ethnic cleansing and apartheid, — Tzeentch
Flagrant? On the basis of the actions of Palestinian Hamas on 7 Oct., I would say that any civil rights they had are suspended pending military resolution. And in this I find the inherent bias. The Israelis are wrong and the Palestinians including Hamas are right. And as a starting point, that just does not make sense.Maybe if the state of Israel stops its flagrant breaches of IHL and human rights, its neighbors would change their disposition towards them. — Tzeentch
I think my own answer is inevitable, if there is to be peace. I have in mind the examples of Japan and Germany. Destroyed in 1945, now prosperous, free, and powerful, though it has taken the work of three generations to this point. And a joint Israeli-Palestinian state so that the Palestinians have a fast track to being equal stakeholders. And for that end, I do not think the Israelis are the ones holding them back, but rather all those who have made a life and career out of Jew-hating, even at the cost of their own lives and the lives of those they're responsible for.Things get a lot more complicated if what you're actually asking is what Israel should do if it wants to continue everything listed above and suffer no consequences for it. — Tzeentch
"Creating unlivable conditions" is what you end up with just thinking about the safety of the settlers: more walls, CCTVs, separate roads, restrictions on movement, random checks and violation of privacy.As to the West Bank, I agree. If the Israelis are creating unlivable conditions on the West Bank, then they should both stop and reverse those actions. — tim wood
It appears that ownership of the West Bank falls to Israel — tim wood
I hold it is at least debatable as to who is creating unlivable conditions in Gaza - maybe the Palestinians have something to do with that? — tim wood
Israel’s sweeping restrictions on leaving Gaza deprive its more than two million residents of opportunities to better their lives, Human Rights Watch said today on the fifteenth anniversary of the 2007 closure. The closure has devastated the economy in Gaza, contributed to fragmentation of the Palestinian people, and forms part of Israeli authorities’ crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians.
[...]
This policy has reduced travel to a fraction of what it was two decades ago, Human Rights Watch said. Israeli authorities have instituted a formal “policy of separation” between Gaza and the West Bank, despite international consensus that these two parts of the Occupied Palestinian Territory form a “single territorial unit.” Israel accepted that principle in the 1995 Oslo Accords, signed with the Palestine Liberation Organization. Israeli authorities restrict all travel between Gaza and the West Bank, even when the travel takes place via the circuitous route through Egypt and Jordan rather than through Israeli territory. — Human Rights Watch
As to the West Bank, I agree. If the Israelis are creating unlivable conditions on the West Bank, then they should both stop and reverse those actions. — tim wood
Please make your case for "ethnic cleansing." — tim wood
Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions, — United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334
Flagrant? — tim wood
1. Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace; — United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334
And a joint Israeli-Palestinian state so that the Palestinians have a fast track to being equal stakeholders. — tim wood
I acknowledge. And if the infection is both terminal and inevitably fatal, then perhaps the right prophylaxis is simply the slaughtering of all of those infected, as with diseased population of birds, sheep, pigs, cows, & etc. But as I hold that in fact hope is always possible, and in principle always given and granted, then we must all hold on to hope. That is, any solution must satisfy the requirements that the solution itself imposes, or it be found to be no solution at all, but simply a middle-east treaty of Versailles - an armistice for a time. And I think time is a main ingredient, along with the eventual dying out of the haters. To facilitate an interim peace, however long it takes, I'd be in favor of a robust blue-helmet presence to protect the peace, well-being, safety, and rights of both sides.Here's why the issue isn't just about details, it's far more worse. — ssu
Granting everything else in your post (although I am unaware of any language in what you cite that, including constraints, restrictions, or burdens on Israel, at the same time mandates protection of Israel for complying with any of those), how do the Israelis protect themselves from anything and everything from rocket and terrorist attacks to invasions? If they and the Palestinians/neighbors would even agree to a quid pro quo of concessions for peace, then good! But the history suggests that not only will the Palestinians not agree, but will act to subvert any possible agreement.But do you understand that if Palestinians were to be given equal rights, there would be more Palestinians living in Israel than Jews, and Israel would subsequently cease to be a Jewish state? — Tzeentch
[...] how do the Israelis protect themselves from anything and everything from rocket and terrorist attacks to invasions? — tim wood
But the history suggests that not only will the Palestinians not agree, but will act to subvert any possible agreement. — tim wood
As to population, if ultimately the Jews in Israel cannot sustain their own population, then indeed they will eventually disappear. — tim wood
Yes, I saw that. Two-state solutions over the years were shot down by the Palestinians. To my eyes, looking at the maps, they all seem absurd on their face. What Levy is about is one state with equal rights for all. And all reasonable people should want that. But the oft and explicit statements of the Palestinians and the neighbors that their only goal is murder of the Jews and the annihilation/destruction of Israel, leads a reasonable person to question the efficacy of reasonable solutions.This is what Gideon Levy, a well-known Israeli journalist and author, has to say about it. — Tzeentch
"You can have peace and prosperity, rights and safety, or you can have war. We're better at war than you are; why don't we try peace?" But alas, I do not think the Palestinians are at the moment, and maybe for another generation, able to give a competent answer. — tim wood
Yes, I saw that. Two-state solutions over the years were shot down by the Palestinians. To my eyes, looking at the maps, they all seem absurd on their face. What Levy is about is one state with equal rights for all. — tim wood
Expressing grave concern that continuing Israeli settlement activities are dangerously imperilling the viability of the two-State solution based on the 1967
lines,
[...]
Stressing that the status quo is not sustainable and that significant steps,
consistent with the transition contemplated by prior agreements, are urgently needed
in order to (i) stabilize the situation and to reverse negative trends on the ground,
which are steadily eroding the two-State solution and entrenching a one-State
reality, and (ii) to create the conditions for successful final status negotiations and
for advancing the two-State solution through those negotiations and on the ground,
1. Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the
Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal
validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major
obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and
comprehensive peace;
[...]
4. Stresses that the cessation of all Israeli settlement activities is essential
for salvaging the two-State solution, and calls for affirmative steps to be taken
immediately to reverse the negative trends on the ground that are imperilling the
two-State solution; — United Nations Security Council Resolution 2334
According to estimates for 2023, the number of Palestinians in Gaza aged 0 to 4 was 278,511. That year, more than half of Gaza's estimated 2.06 million inhabitants were below 20 years old. — Statista · Nov 21, 2023
Our modern civilisation has a duty here, for global security and to right the wrong of the exile of the Jews and the subsequent exile of the Palestinians. — Punshhh
Or to have war weariness.And I think time is a main ingredient, along with the eventual dying out of the haters. To facilitate an interim peace, however long it takes, I'd be in favor of a robust blue-helmet presence to protect the peace, well-being, safety, and rights of both sides. — tim wood
A populist leader does what the people want to be done and milks the raw emotion of the crowd. He doesn't think what would be better in the long term even after he isn't in power.Netanyahu has little regard for this, as he becomes part of the Middle Eastern grizzly affairs. He represents fully being co-opted by the barbarism. — schopenhauer1
The question is: how many Palestinians killed is independence worth for them? I believe it's quite high. They won't just leave to the Egyptian desert as they know there's no coming back.Hamas would first have to give a shit about their own people. That key is harder to turn. — schopenhauer1
A populist leader does what the people want to be done and milks the raw emotion of the crowd. He doesn't think what would be better in the long term even after he isn't in power. — ssu
The question is: how many Palestinians killed is independence worth for them? I believe it's quite high. They won't just leave to the Egyptian desert as they know there's no coming back. — ssu
Now I might be mistaken as a matter of fact, but I suspect that no one here - except maybe ssu - has any special knowledge. — tim wood
They are, 1) what exactly, near as you can tell, do the Palestinians want? And 2) what in your opinion should the Israelis do? — tim wood
I think the main problem is that some people think there's a moral equivalence between the violence of Palestinians and Israel. That requires you to deny several of the following things:
1. Palestinians are oppressed, discriminated against and economically undermined by border control that basically functions like the worst sanctions we have in the world
2. A gross differential in military might and state power
3. A gross differential in political support from other countries and political representation
4. Israeli "security" trumps Palestinian "security" pace every draft of every deal where on average there's pages upon pages on the former and very little or nothing in the latter
5. Israeli deaths are a fraction of Palestinian deaths
6. The multitude of discriminatory laws in Israeli proper linked to religious affiliation
7. Palestine barely functions, Israel is a modern state claiming to be a democracy
So when a Palestinian cheers an Israeli death, it's not the same thing. If an Israeli is killed in this conflict, it's not the same thing. To interpret the violence between these two groups as morally equivalent is wilfully ignoring context.
Nothing in the past 20 years has given any indication Israel wants peace. If one side doesn't want peace and undermines it every time, what's the moral obligation of the other side? At what point does violence against the oppressor become a moral obligation? — Benkei
Here's a two-state solution and how to get there:
1. Israel to unilaterally recognise a right for the Palestinians to have a sovereign state where the 1967 borders will be the basis for the size of Palestine
2. stop all further settlements in WB and evictions in East-Jerusalem, recognise ownership rights in East Jerusalem
3. repeal all discriminatory laws in Israel proper
4. no more collective punishment of Palestinians
5. no more blockade of Gaza and its air space and sea
6. no more mass destruction in response to ineffectual missiles or balloons
7. tear down the wall
8. For the interim period, Gaza and WB remain occupied territories but they will be policed instead of military oppression
9. Palestinians to commit to an indefinite cease fire as long as Israel maintains the above 8 points
edit: 10. forgot: Palestinians to recognise Israel along the 1967 borders as the basis of the size of israel
In other words, stop the crimes. There's no excuse.
Enter into the transition period where Palestine should be set up:
1. include the political wing of Hamas in talks as well as PA
2. land-for-land exchanges to arrive at comparable land size
3. Israel to pay Palestine an amount equal to all the monies spent supporting illegal settlers so it has the means to settle the new lands it receives through the land-for-land exchange
4. Palestine to hire their own first and Israeli contractors second (which will lead to "reparations" flowing back to Israel and creating economic interdependence)
5. have religious leaders negotiate the Temple Mount
6. Jerusalem as independent city-state administered by Palestinians and Israelis alike
7. gradually transition policing activities in Palestine to Palestinians
8. Set up a special task force of like minded Israelis and Palestinians to investigate (terrorist) crimes committed by Israelis against Palestinians and vice versa, where jurisdiction will be with the state of the victim
9. retreat from WB and Gaza and set up border controls
10. Declare a Palestinian state
11. Party with your Israeli neighbours — Benkei
Hamas and the PA don't need to deradicalise when terrorist bombings are a consequence of Israeli oppression. — Benkei
And for those who excuse Hamas' tactics because they are the "underdogs".. then it's a wash because then anything Israel does is just to over-power Hamas' brutality with their own power.. and so it's just simply power against power. It becomes nihilism all around and those with more power wins, whatever your conflation of the two sides might be. — schopenhauer1
Yeah that's all I need to hear to ignore you as a one-sided terrorist-supporter. — schopenhauer1
So when a Palestinian cheers an Israeli death, it's not the same thing. If an Israeli is killed in this conflict, it's not the same thing. To interpret the violence between these two groups as morally equivalent is wilfully ignoring context. — Benkei
I've noticed that you repeatedly liken palestinians to dogs or children. Given this is the case, how can one believe that they're ready of self-rule? The international community ought to set them a proper bedtime. — BitconnectCarlos
The point is, why don't you demand Israel to deradicalise their insane colonisation policy, apartheid regime and war crime tactics? No, in your mind, Hamas and PA need to take steps to become peace loving hippies while being ethnically cleansed by their neighbours. It's an idiotic ask. When Israel stops its crimes, then you can expect these things. — Benkei
I just don't buy the idea that Hamas' actions or the support by Palestinians in large numbers, are the result of the conditions of Gaza / Palestinians, like they are beat animals that have no other choice. I just don't buy that beheading and raping civilians, keeping heads for ransom, etc. burning babies, parents praising children for their brutality as it's happening, and such are part-and-parcel of reaction of being mistreated. The Middle Eastern cultural practices when it comes to "justice", "land", and such are grizzly matters that makes their cause for X \ less sympathetic.
People think the situation is this:
The poor innocent Avatar people being colonized.. They are peaceful and want no harm but are being dominated by this imperial power... — schopenhauer1
Except I'm not. As I've stated before I don't condone all their methods. But nuance is difficult. The point is, why don't you demand Israel to deradicalise their insane colonisation policy, apartheid regime and war crime tactics? No, in your mind, Hamas and PA need to take steps to become peace loving hippies while being ethnically cleansed by their neighbours. It's an idiotic ask. When Israel stops its crimes, then you can expect these things. — Benkei
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