Yes, rumination can be extremely problematic. There may be different sources of a philosophy of despair. In some respects, a philosophy of despair of the angry young men can be narcissistic, and revolve around image. I don't think that I am coming from this perspective currently, but may have done so at some stages in the past.

My own experience of despair is mostly bound up with difficulties in meeting real life goals. It is hard to know to what extent thinking or other approaches work. To some extent, cognitive behavioral therapy approaches involve trying to find more helpful ways of thinking. The negative self talk can be worked with and the parallels between CBT and a philosophy of Stoicism are strong. However, rational thinking alone may be not enough to work with the emotional aspects of despair. Intuition and involvement of both the right and left side of the brain may be needed for a healing state of consciousness.

It is interesting to think about the extent to which thinkers, especially the existentialists were concerned with the emotions of depression. Nietzsche certainly was troubled in his mental health.

The nature of depression and despair overlap but are a little different as well. Some of it may come down to cultural assumptions and choice of language. In the context of mental health, which is my work background, the terms depression and suicidal are common. Depression is spoken of so much and GPs prescribe antidepressants routinely. Suicidal thoughts and suicide risk are spoken of so much but despair rarely. I have not come across anyone diagnosed with clinical despair, only clinical depression.

Nevertheless, a state of feeling and thinking about hopelessness does exist and it may not involve actual suicide or other features of depression, such as inability to function. In that way, depression and despair point to a whole spectrum of mental states and an yaccompanying philosophy of life, including nihilism or the transpersonal thinkers ideas of the 'dark night' as a means of transformation.

Even though I see despair in itself as negative I am inclined to wonder if it part of the journeying to higher states of consciousness. — Jack Cummins

There is of course the 'dark night of the soul', that is understood as a stage of spiritual growth, which you mention. But 'despair' also has connotations of a sense of futility or finality which I don't know is healthy. While obviously unhappiness and even depression are part of the human condition, I think your mental health requires an understanding that these are transient states. But I know how difficult that is - when you're in a very down state, everything looks grey, it's impossible to see anything to be joyful about. I've learned that the only way to handle such states is the awareness that they will pass, even if at the time it seems impossible. And as I said before, I'm a big advocate of physical activity as an antidote. Endorphins are great anti-depressants.

Big part of it is getting over yourself. My two favourite sayings became: "my life has been a series of crises, most of which have never occurred"; and "life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans" (the first is anon., the second from John Lennon.)

Nietzsche certainly was troubled in his mental health. — Jack Cummins

Rather a euphemistic description. 'The Titanic got into a bit of trouble on its maiden voyage.'

I'm only pointing to a warning sign on the path: make sure you're enjoying the activity, rather than ruminating in a circle, since we can get stuck in that pattern. I think when it's a pleasure is when we're not feeling despair and we're trying to make sense of the experience. Camus' contemplation of suicide is attempting to rationally pursue the question of the absurd and whether or not we should commit suicide on philosophical grounds.

But if what we need is healing then it's important to note we usually need help with that, and thinking about it isn't the same as talking about it with a therapist or a trusted friend, and philosophizing about it -- well, only do that when healed. You have more important things to do than philosophize about it when you're hurting.

But if what we need is healing then it's important to note we usually need help with that, and thinking about it isn't the same as talking about it with a therapist or a trusted friend, and philosophizing about it -- well, only do that when healed. You have more important things to do than philosophize about it when you're hurting. — Moliere

:up: :up:

Despair? If

What is hell? I maintain that it is the suffering of being unable to love. — Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov

then this must be despair.

addendum to ...
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/874452

There is an infinite amount of hope in the universe ... but not for us. — Franz Kafka

From on old thread "Questions of Hope, Love and Peace" ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/759520

and from an even older @Jack Cummins thread ...

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/511013

As discussed in previous threads, the philosophy of pessimism, optimism, fear, blind faith or hope and existential aspects of courage are a spectrum of thinking perspectives.

What may be most important is finding balance. In the last few weeks, I did reach states of despair, mainly because I was afraid of losing my current accommodation. I have always seen homelessness and blindness as being the worst of possibilities, although I am sure that many people have developed strength in the face of such adversities.

Having just come out of a 'black hole' state, I see preparing for the worst, in terms of realism, but seeking the best, to be important in an attitude of thinking. I am also hoping that I have learned through my recent encounter with despair. The experience of despair may lead to sharp nudges sufficient to increase self awareness and about the nature of existence itself.

The loss of hope and autonomy are likely to be connected to a sense of being a mere part in a machine-like system. This brings a political edge to the issue of despair and optimism and social control. This may be especially trud in compliance with war. Recently, I have seen various news posts in which it is suggested that UK citizens may be expected to fight if there is war between Britain and Russia.

There are so many aspects of life which involve conformity and compliance. The senses may be dulled through chemicals and the philosophy of materialism itself may lead to a loss of a belief in free will, and thereby, a sense of loss of hope to use reflective consciousness.

The idea of nihilism and the idea of 'the dark night of the soul', by writers, such as Thomas More, are an interesting area of comparison and contrast. The nihilistic position, which could be seen as stemming from some of the existentialist thinkers, is often based on an idea of loss of belief in God, although Dostoevsky and Kierkegaaard may be exceptions here.

Ideas of the 'dark night of the soul' are more based on the idea of transmutation of despair, and do not rely specifically on the existence of a deity. It may come down to whether all is seen as random chaos or, whether it is possible to see intention and underlying ordering in the processes of life and, any potential power to choose one's destiny.

I hope things work out better for you soon and more so as the new year unfolds, Jack. I've struggled with health problems and financial losses much more and persistently since 2020 than I ever have in my adult life. Despair and I are old dance partners often switching-up who leads whom. Humbled by this ordeal, my meditation on 'courage' up-thread is not an empty boast of false bravado or posturing machismo. I'm still breathing because of 'courage' as a first principle (e.g. Sisyphusean spite ...) and apparently, in your own way, Jack, you are as well.

The idea of nihilism ... — Jack Cummins

"... is as dead as God." ~T. Ligotti :fire:

IME, contemplating – lucidiry of – the absurd is preferable to – healthier than – "nihilism".

You've probably heard of the term "existential depression". I don't think it's a fake term, though it probbaly has limited psychological use/appeal (oh hi I diagnosed you with nothingness). I may have had existential therapy, which sounds odd but anyway.

it may not occur to one to feel despair

OK I'm not very well read, but the sensation that only despair is real means something, even if nothing else does. Of course, it's better that other stuff means! I used to think of it in terms of the most bullshitty misunderstanding of Buddhism: I don't matter, so no-one does! Will to annihilation, for sure, and FWIW you'd just want to locate yourself among other people who can refute the consequent (not that difficult).

Death, well I have read Heidegger, and the analysis of "my death" is not merely evocative but startlingly so. How we relate to it matters forsolong as (complete that sentence...).