However, too radical a change in economic structure would be catastrophic. Accidental catastrophe is bad enough, and no one wants to deliberately cause a catastrophe. — BC

So we wait till it's too late for gradual or controlled demolition of a failed system, until the structure collapses on our heads. The only way to get more radical or catastrophic than global economic collapse, is to nuke ourselves.

Does the fact that people live in a tribe necessarily mean that they can be classed as 'uncivilized'? — Beverley

If we are talking about tribes like the Amazonian and Congolese tribes before contact with Europeans, and San tribes today, yes, they are not civilised by any metric.

If we are talking about tribes like the Amazonian and Congolese tribes before contact with Europeans, and San tribes today, yes, they are not civilised by any metric. — Lionino

What if we were talking about North American natives? They had something to say about European civilization.
I generally use 'civilization' to mean urbanized society arranged in a pyramidal caste system, with power and wealth at the top, drudgery and poverty at the bottom. I don't think much of it. But others have used the word to mean any organized group of people with a distinct social system and culture. In the latter sense, Amerindians, indigenous Australians, African nations were all civilizations before a climate change or bigger empire destroyed them.
The online dictionary says:

a human society that has highly developed material and spiritual resources and a complex cultural, political, and legal organization;

but fails to explain what it considers highly developed, complex or spiritual, nor why it considers complexity a prerequisite.
OTOH, individuals are generally said to be civilized if they have self-control and good manners - which the North American First Nations certainly had.

Can anyone think of alternative arrangements that might work better? — Vera Mont

It is only in tribal settings (non-civilised societies) where everybody does a little bit of this and a little bit of that. — Lionino

That's a good solution

What if we were talking about North American natives? — Vera Mont

As far as I know you are one. So I would ask you.

I generally use 'civilization' to mean urbanized society arranged in a pyramidal caste system, with power and wealth at the top, drudgery and poverty at the bottom. — Vera Mont

I would leave the second half out of it.

But others have used the word to mean any organized group of people with a distinct social system and culture. In the latter sense, Amerindians, indigenous Australians, African nations were all civilizations before a climate change or bigger empire destroyed them. — Vera Mont

Historiography says the first civilisation was Sumer. Let's think about what things did Sumer have that Australian aboroginals did not have? That should give the definition.

but fails to explain what it considers highly developed, complex or spiritual, nor why it considers complexity a prerequisite. — Vera Mont

That dictionary did not employ a very good lexicographer if it figures nonsense like "highly developed spiritual resources".

individuals are generally said to be civilized if they have self-control and good manners — Vera Mont

That is metaphorical usage.

As far as I know you are one. — Lionino

Where do you get that idea? In fact, I'm firmly in the "settler" category. We are slowly learning to coexist in some semblance of amity.

I would leave the second half out of it. — Lionino

Yah, that would make better PR, but has never been true.

That's a good solution — Patterner

It is for an increasing number of modern people. Intentional communities were mentioned earlier in this thread and some religious group function on an approximation of tribal organization, significantly the Amish/Mennonite and Seventh Day Adventist, and Quaker communities.

San tribes today, yes, they are not civilised by any metric. — Lionino

I was just wondering, in what way are San tribes not civilized?

I was just wondering, in what way are San tribes not civilized? — Beverley

Try to think of a couple reasons.

I don't know of any. I assume you do because you quoted them as being uncivilized, so I was just wondering what made you think that.

If you look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFxe0I-a6lU and can't figure out what's different between the San society and ancient civilisations like Egypt, Sumer, and Minoa, none of my "reasons" would help you.
Take the Hadza as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2Szbfq9IA4

The only way to get more radical or catastrophic than global economic collapse, is to nuke ourselves. — Vera Mont

Which our dear leaders might just do.

The thing is, "the system" we find ourselves in escapes our control from the beginning. We can't even be precise about what "system" is operating today until some indefinite time in the future.

Nobody announced that the Medieval Age was over and that the Renaissance had begun, The Enlightenment was not televised. There was no notice in the paper that an Industrial Revolution had happened. When did our "modern period" begin? 1600? 1760? 1823? 1880? 1910? 1922? 15 minutes ago?

The system, whether we like it or loathe it, will become something else right under our noses, and we won't register the change. It isn't that we are too stupid to notice: it is that large scale gradual changes are too large for us to notice.

I'm not suggesting the futility of understanding our circumstances. I'm just pointing out that we better understand what happened 100 years ago than we do what is happening right now.

Thanks for the videos. I'm interested to see these tribes. I'll take a look and get back to you (although I'm sensing a reluctance from you to discuss it. It's okay if you don't want to.) I guess I was intrigued to know what your interpretation of 'civilized' was. We may differ in this respect, but I'm not sure. Anyway, have a nice evening (if and when it's evening where you are)

They don't own much, do share their scarce material resources, don't make war unless they're attacked, know far too much about the inhospitable land on which they subsist, and are too willing to share that knowledge. Savages!

They don't own much, do share their scarce material resources, don't make war unless they're attacked, know far too much about the inhospitable land on which they subsist, and are too willing to share that knowledge. Savages! — Vera Mont

That is the kind of thing I suspected. I also believe they make decisions via consensus and women are treated as equals. I think there are many examples of so called civilized societies today that act in very uncivilized ways. I don't think this whole matter is so black and white.

It's not a two tiered system. There are workers, managers and owners.

And share holders, and board members, and founders, and outsourced workers and companies, and interns, and...

Can anyone think of alternative arrangements that might work better? — Vera Mont

If everyone, from their heart and deepest convictions, set out to help and serve everyone else first before they even asked what they themselves wanted out of the day, and lived in a spirit of charity and humble respect towards all others first, then each of us would have the entire world looking out for us. We’d all be employed by everyone else who were all working for us just the same.

Until then, probably just need a good management structure and some policies and procedures.

To a large extent, that is exactly what it is.

It's not a two tiered system. There are workers, managers and owners. — LuckyR

Yes, I think that's been covered.

And share holders, and board members, and founders, and outsourced workers and companies, and interns, and... — Lionino

Indeed. Lots and lots of slots in the ramp, kissing up, kicking down.

Are jobs necessary? — Vera Mont

Yes. Unless you like the way hobos live. Or risking your life by robbing banks.

So, you believe that the only possible social, political and economic organization is the one we currently have.

So, you believe that the only possible social, political and economic organization is the one we currently have. — Vera Mont

Yes. I can't see anything else. What else do you have in mind? A kibbutz or a commune?

Those have been mentioned, among other solutions.