I'm not insulting you. Are you perceiving it like an insult? — flannel jesus
…."do you still beat your wife?" It's nothing like that. — flannel jesus
insofar as if I say yes, I believe a query has been made, than my knowledge of it appears predetermined and I’ve contradicted myself, and if I say no I don’t believe the query has been made leaves open the catastrophic descension into that pitiful sophism, you can’t know what you don’t believe. — Mww
Does not matter to me how many conjunctions are necessary.
I'm certain that my fridge will be there when I go grab a yogurt.
Unshakably. Absolutely. Certitude is worth keeping. It's temperance and judgment that need honed. In other words, sometimes it is wise to not expect a pattern to continue. Not all. — creativesoul
But I think that there are empirical facts of the matter.
Direct awareness, knowledge, and belief are distinct, but given the need for evolutionary progression, I cannot agree with claiming that they are independent. — creativesoul
Do you mean Chet has managed to escape before being burnt by the fire, together with the stick? — Alkis Piskas
"Knowledge" is a very funny word. People try to formalize it in all sorts of weird ways, but I think most people, when they say they "know" something, mean pretty much the same thing as "I believe it, and I'm really really really confident of my belief."
It can't go unnoticed how various people "know" things that contradict what other people "know" as well. Some people know that Jesus is King, other people know Muhammad was the last prophet, other people know Krishna is the eighth avatar of Vishnu.
So if we just look at how the word "know" is used, it's used to refer to extreme confidence (or even extreme faith). It's just a privileged type of belief, privileged specifically by the person with that belief such that they place it above beliefs they have that they don't call "knowledge". — flannel jesus
You presumably don't know that...
There is no knowledge!
— Chet Hawkins — Banno
Again, the difference between the stuff you know and the stuff you merely believe is that hte stuff you know is true.But I am self confessed as 'knowledge is only belief', and sadly I DO believe it is ONLY belief. — Chet Hawkins
No, it requires truth.we know that knowing requires perfection — Chet Hawkins
People don't communicate -truth itself-, they communicate their beliefs about the things they think are true. — flannel jesus
The former is a subset of the latter. Different people/groups have different reasons for saying this batch of beliefs over here, they've got promise or they sure seem to be working so far or they fit X and Y really well and those over there don't fit it so well and those over there we can't make sense of to even tell. — Bylaw
There can be accidentally true statements. But knowing is delusional as a base. This is along the lines of a broken clock is still right twice daily.Some folk (@Chet Hawkins?) will say that there are no true statements. But it is true that you are reading this. — Banno
So you are saying it is true that there can be accidentally true statements?There can be accidentally true statements. — Chet Hawkins
Again, no that is wrong.↪Chet Hawkins,
But I am self confessed as 'knowledge is only belief', and sadly I DO believe it is ONLY belief.
— Chet Hawkins
Again, the difference between the stuff you know and the stuff you merely believe is that hte stuff you know is true. — Banno
Truth and perfection are synonymous. You could also say 'God'. But I do not prefer that delusional moniker.we know that knowing requires perfection
— Chet Hawkins
No, it requires truth. — Banno
Well, no they are not.Truth and perfection are synonymous. — Chet Hawkins
I am deontological in belief. If you intend something that is an accident you are still not really right. The summation of your words in the simplest sense may mean something close to truth. But the intent ruins it. That solves the quandary you are trying to break the argument with.There can be accidentally true statements.
— Chet Hawkins
. SIO you are saying it is true that there can be accidentally true statements?
Or is that also an accidental truth? — Banno
That has no bearing on what we are discussing, except that knowledge is the same. Ergo knowledge is only belief.Think a bit further. If you say you believe something, then you say that you believe it to be true. — Banno
In that we agree.You cannot get by without truth. — Banno
Truth and perfection are synonymous.
— Chet Hawkins
Well, no they are not.
But you thinking this might explain your error. — Banno
It is not really the real me that is reading this. It is a subjective interpretation of me that I am projecting currently onto the real me. — Chet Hawkins
The driving need for certainty is other people's foolish fear. — Chet Hawkins
Justification is not actual proof. It is only 'good enough'. This means different things to different people as you yourself just pointed out. So your own definition or the one you quoted here is clearly wrong.I think you are correct, because both terms are subject to varying definitions, depending on the context. Philosophically, knowledge is "justified true belief"*1, which is the basis of the scientific method : verification of hypotheses. But William James*2 noted that "many people" seem to assume their beliefs are facts. Physicist David Bohm*3 echoed that insight, along with David Hume's quip about Reason being the slave of the passions. — Gnomon
So-crates was wise enough to know human nature. He was accounting for it. His Apology was disingenuous.Yet, Socrates*4, acclaimed for his wisdom, must have had that human propensity --- for equating Feelings & Beliefs with reliable Knowledge --- in mind when he said, with a touch of irony, "I know that I know nothing". Allowing for such rare exceptions to James' rule, perhaps you could tweak Hawkins' truism that "knowledge is only belief", by adding that Wisdom is tried & true Belief. :smile: — Gnomon
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