Well I was talking about OP and he says he is 40 years old. I dont know who rossi is.

Stop reading the philosophical shit that pulls you in this direction. — jgill

I stopped and no longer do. Somehow I just can't get the headline of the cited article out of my own head - Why is it always better to cease to exist.

Like there is no possible life to live.

I certainly don't want to kill myself - just trying to find a way to live my life and find my own way (which would work) of doing it.

Another recommendation: Take up Zen under the tutelage of a Master. This would give your life a rigid focus, enforced by the physicality it employs. You will change if you take the practice seriously. I've seen it happen.

Why is it always better to cease to exist.

Keep thinking "It is better to exist" You have to corral your thoughts and Zen will do the job if you persevere.

You've had plenty of advice, here and elsewhere. Maybe you can still read a couple of self-help books. Whether you take any of the advice or not; whether you make any effort or not, I stopped caring about an hour ago.

I really don't want this thread to be about some sort of self-help. I just can't get the idea of 'It’s always better to cease to exist' out of my head. What if the author of that paper is right? What if the most rational, logical thing to do is, in fact, suicide? (I'm not saying it is, just the "What if" lingers in my mind). If it is not, what should my 'reason' to live be? Why should I live, and how should I live?

Why is suicide (assuming you're healthy) irrational? I don’t know why my mind keeps thinking there’s no real reason to live. Maybe it stems from my ethics? - which I found out could be considered negative utilitarianism. It also means I don’t want to cause suffering to others, but I can't seem to ease my own suffering.

I’ve read many discussions here and came across this response by @180 Proof:

No. Acute depression (due to XYZ) or unbearable, interminable pain or both will lead some to commit suicide. The switch does not flip itself. Pessimism, however, is simply a rationalization (à la hypochondria) for coping with ineluctable frustrations (i.e., facticity).

Or is suicide just a permanent solution to a temporary problem? If yes, how so?

Is depression or pain really what leads to suicide? Does the switch really not flip itself?

Or is suicide just a permanent solution to a temporary problem? If yes, how so?

Is depression or pain really what leads to suicide? Does the switch really not flip itself? — rossii

Suicide is what sounds like a permenant solution to a problem.

I wouldn't say "temporary" cuz I live with depression. As in diagnosed and talked with therapists and have seen my own trends and everything like that.

Suicide is an odd thought, these days. It comes up all the time. That's part of the symptoms of depression, at least as I experience it.

It seems so reasonable, and yet....

The switch, for me, has never stopped. It's why I say I have chronic depression -- like a diabetic, I have unhealthy habits that aren't going away, and the habit-changers have yet to take away for me.

Rather, I just have had to accept that this is part of my life, that when I think that way it's not worth listening to because I have depression and sometimes the "easiest" way out is just an idle thought which I don't want to pursue, anyways. I'm just upset and uncertain about what to do.

But it took me years to get here, and I'm still improving over time and failing every day. So don't take this as a sign you can't do it.

you can, cuz if I could, anyone could.

I don’t know why my mind keeps thinking there’s no real reason to live — rossii

I'm unaware of any "real reason to live" other than that which one gives oneself by taking caring of – investing time in –anything or anyone other than just oneself.

Maybe it stems from my ethics? - which I found out could be considered negative utilitarianism. It also means I don’t want to cause suffering to others, but I can't seem to ease my own suffering.

IME, as a fellow negative utilitarian, I've found that anticipating & preventing or reducing just one other person's suffering (or nonperson's pain) daily helps to reduce (or "ease") my own suffering daily. Once it's habitual, rossii, disutilitarianism feels like and becomes a win-win practice (i.e. virtue).

Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. Thus, IMO, it's an irrational act because one (non-pathologically) commits suicide out of blind hope.

Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. Thus, IMO, it's an irrational act because one (non-pathologically) commits suicide out of blind hope. — 180 Proof

I don't want to be too universal, but I'd say my own suicidal ideations -- at least from my perspective -- are the most irrational part of my thinking patterns.

It's probably why I like Camus.

@niki wonoto -- we're about the same age. And our philosophical interests are similar, in that we wonder about the existential parts of life,

But you don't respond to people so I wonder what it is you're asking after?

I don't want to be too universal, but I'd say my own suicidal ideations -- at least from my perspective -- are the most irrational part of my thinking patterns. — Moliere

That's probably because you don't want to die. there is a whole world of feeling, thinking, imagining between not liking one's life the way it is and wishing to die. Death is a very real act/thing/gate/event that cannot be reversed. Everything this side of it is open to the possibility of change.

Oh, many reasons -- and part of it is that. I've lived with these feelings for more of my life than I haven't, I've come to realize. There are thoughts like that, but my feelings aren't the same as those thoughts, I suppose....

I feel a connection with 's thoughts, and I think other forum members do too -- dumb thoughts I've had before, things like that -- but was wondering if niki would be willing to say more than the same in an attempt to point out -- that's the next step!

:up:

Besides, killing oneself is a gamble, not a guarantee (or even ascertainable likelihood) that not existing will be better than existing, or that death will end your suffering or despair or interminable boredom. — 180 Proof

How so? I genuinely would like to know more.

are the most irrational part of my thinking patterns. — Moliere

There's a difference for me, I guess. These thoughts come across (or at least i feel like that) as the most rational ones to me.

That's probably because you don't want to die. — Vera Mont

I don't want to die either. I just need a rational or any reason (maybe even irrational) to live that would really work for me.

I don't want to die either. I just need a rational or any reason (maybe even irrational) to live that would really work for me. — rossii

I'm sure you'll find one if you really want to. But finding a reason to live and actually doing something something positive is a commitment. As you don't appear in any big hurry to resolve the issue, maybe you prefer to keep your options open.

...to the suicidal the grass is always greener on the other side of the abyss...

We have no way of knowing what it feels like not to be alive – especially, whether 'not existing' is better than existing. It's as simple as that. Besides, suppose each of us only comes into existence in order to escape, as a brief respite, from (e.g. timeless torments of)
nonexistence?

To summarize and maybe do my last post in this thread, not to spam it, I would say:

That this all started some 10 years ago, when I got a bit into philosophy. I came across antinatalism and it kinda shocked me. I mean from time to time I always had thoughts, what's it like to never be born (I know it makes no sense, but still) and there were these authors arguing it's better not to be born, like for example David Benatar.

I thought to myself, how can on one hand you claim that life is bad, not worth being born into this world etc., but on the other hand consciously make decision to stay alive in this "bad" world.

Then I said to myself, okay so I've been fucked, being born here, but there's nothing I can do about it. Killing myself won't change that fact, it will only cause pain and suffering to my friends and family.

So I became something like a personal antinatalist, have no interest in preaching antinatalism nor do I want an antinatalist outcome. About 6 months ago I came across an article I linked earlier "Better to Return Whence We Came" which comes to a conclusion that "... Benatar’s anti-natalism gets us to pro-mortalism..." "...Benatar's position makes ceasing to exist the best option..." "...To conclude, if Benatar is right about the human predicament, it is better for us to return whence we came...".

And I'm back to my old suicidal self - because antinatalism equals suicide? I really don't know.

Sounds like foundations of existentialism.

From a very young age, perhaps 7 or 8, I formed the view that human life was inherently meaningless. This has rarely depressed me. Mostly I found it amusing; that all our chasing after things, our ambitions and our self-importance is really for nothing. There's a freedom in this. We don't need to prove anything to anyone and we are always good enough. I also think that being happy or finding joy is perfectly compatible with meaninglessness. Joy isn't dependent upon inherent significance, it can come to anyone for any reason. I think our experience of this has less to do with what we believe about life and more about our disposition, personality and brain chemistry.

On the up-side, Putin et al will probably decide the issue for us all.

Sorry to interject, but are you still getting psychological help?

You mentioned it earlier in the thread, and judging by what I am reading you are in need of professional guidance.

I'd steer clear of a forum like this if you are sensitive to certain philosophies. Philosophy is maybe a part of the answer, but probably not in the stage you seem to be in right now. I'd sooner view some of the people here an actual hazard to your health.

:up:

We don't need to prove anything to anyone and we are always good enough. I also think that being happy or finding joy is perfectly compatible with meaninglessness. Joy isn't dependent upon inherent significance, it can come to anyone for any reason. I think our experience of this has less to do with what we believe about life and more about our disposition, personality and brain chemistry. — Tom Storm

:100:

There are people who can work into their 80s. I mean -- as an employee. To them, I say, wow! They don't need to worry about retirement savings because they work full time until they keel over. They do not stress out over their job.

Sorry to interject, but are you still getting psychological help?

You mentioned it earlier in the thread, and judging by what I am reading you are in need of professional guidance. — Tzeentch

I am, I went through quite a few psychologists and psychiatrists and have times I don't care about some "reason to stay alive" and times I desperately need one. There are times that my mind tells me i'm doing irrational thing by staying alive, and I don't really know why. So there's my search for a reason to stay alive that would work for me. I really don't want to kill myself, don't want to hurt people around me, but still need some sort of purpose in life.

I'd steer clear of a forum like this if you are sensitive to certain philosophies. Philosophy is maybe a part of the answer, but probably not in the stage you seem to be in right now. I'd sooner view some of the people here an actual hazard to your health. — Tzeentch

Probably a good idea, I'll try to limit my time here and generally with philosophy and see.

my life is a complete failure. It’s full of wrong decisions, (in)actions, regrets, mistakes after mistakes, that I honestly think maybe it’s already too late to “fix everything” (eg: I’m losing all the good chances/opportunities, as I’m getting old now). It’s really ironic & tragic, because a lot of people always say that I’m very talented especially in music (I used to be quite an active musician & composer/songwriter, but sadly I’m still not famous & successful), smart, a deep thinker, a highly sensitive person, etc etc. — niki wonoto

Acknowledging I do not have access to your full story, may I suggest:

Breathe, that is really your "life." Is that failing? Eating? Being?

That other stuff you call "failure," is not your life, but the stories you and those within your circle have constructed. It is not ironic that you are talented (which anyone can readily see) and feel this way.

What I think is ironic is that you ascribe those things to your life, when your life is hopefully succeeding, assuming you are still living. Mental suffering is not a sign of life failing; but rather a sign of the need to implement changes.

So, as for those things, use your talent to revise and edit; like you might a post you are not fully satisfied with, before manifesting it to the rest of the world.

Easier said than done? Probably. Why not start by breathing. Not saying, I am breathing, not counting breaths or focusing on the breathing. These too are the story. Try being breathing. If you really do that, I think it is inevitable that your life will "see" that it carries on just fine while your stories are adjusting.

I used to be quite an active musician & composer/songwriter, but sadly I’m still not famous & successful — niki wonoto

You chose a profession that is unbelievably competitive. I would suggest you try to find an unexplored niche in that community, one that fits your talents, and work hard at it, but you may have gone that direction already. Half of success is being in the right place at the right time. I have a stepson who, years ago, toured with a rock band as a singer, but found a niche in the industry as an audio engineer. He worked, later, under the stage, recording Taylor Swift's performances.

Not saying, I am breathing, not counting breaths or focusing on the breathing. These too are the story. — ENOAH

No it isn’t. No more a story than “being breathing,” which is just a hokey phrase. Just look at whatever you feel or think, try to sustain that awareness with equanimity. That’s all.

I really dislike when people sentimentalize meditation.

I really dislike when people sentimentalize meditation. — Mikie

Fair enough, and I accept and respect that "sentiment."
In fact, I'll accept your inference, for what it is worth, that I was intending to describe "meditation."

Okay— sorry for the hostility. I feel it often leads people away from meditating rather than encourages them, that’s why I get annoyed. I’m sure that wasn’t your intention.

No offence taken, and I did not mean for my response to sound offended.