But you are prioritizing assertions. You choose a set of assertions that you send to me. You even called some of it wisdom. You may not label that group, but you have a group. You consider that group of assertions more likely than others that you or someone else might assert.If it is not the certainty part of knowing that you are advocating for, and instead only that this 'knowledge' thing is 'special' in some way, then what way is it special? To me the idea that we (anyone) should credit anyone's knowing with something more impressive than only any other belief is dangerous and so prone to error that I almost can't believe I am having to defend the notion. — Chet Hawkins
In my world 'wisdom' is at least as loaded a term as 'knowledge'. I use that one also, but I notice a lot of people have a hierarchy belief, knowledge, wisdom. With the last term being the best. Of course this is not necessarily a spectum of certainty and an indicate type. But It seems to me allowing oneself to categorize 'my beliefs X and Y are wisdom' is as easily misused as doing that with the category knowledge.It has served me so well in terms of efficient tracking of problems in almost all cases that I had decided and maintain that it is useful for others to adopt that strategy as a part of general wisdom. — Chet Hawkins
I'm not close to anyone who does this. Assume it is settled, period, shall not be questioned. There are many situations where I just move forward with what they've said as the case. And I like having, for example, my wife using think and know - or some other similar categories. I don't assume when she says know that she cannot be wrong, but I work with it in a different way from 'think'. I think I shut off the stove. I know I shut off the stove. Yes, she might have hallucinated or shut off something else and been confused. But she's got a great record when sure and I find the distinction useful. I certainly don't want her walking around saying I believe regardless of her certainty. If she says she knows, but I am aware of things that put this in doubt, well, I may well go back up and check. She just got terrible news. She's had a couple of shots - she doesn't drink, but just showing some obvious examples of things that might affect me - and also might keep her from saying she knows also, given her self-awareness.The trouble is that when most people say 'know' most others that have not already come to doubt their knowledge incorrectly assume that matter is settled.
I don't find it useful to follow rules that might good for most people to follow. Also I think if most people stopped using those words, they wouldn't stop thinking they knew, nor would they stop conveying that they are right and you go against their belief at your own danger.The trouble is that most people stop caring or thinking when that word is used and they forgo the other 30-15% that is where the real value is
Yes indeed. And I understand why you think/believe that is a relevant response to my statement.If it is not the certainty part of knowing that you are advocating for, and instead only that this 'knowledge' thing is 'special' in some way, then what way is it special? To me the idea that we (anyone) should credit anyone's knowing with something more impressive than only any other belief is dangerous and so prone to error that I almost can't believe I am having to defend the notion.
— Chet Hawkins
But you are prioritizing assertions. You choose a set of assertions that you send to me. You even called some of it wisdom. You may not label that group, but you have a group. You consider that group of assertions more likely than others that you or someone else might assert. — Bylaw
I simply agree and in fact, one is well advised that wisdom, being far trickier than knowledge alone, is something handled in far worse ways than only knowledge is. I admit that up front. This is the first such accusation levelled and I simply acquiesce.It has served me so well in terms of efficient tracking of problems in almost all cases that I had decided and maintain that it is useful for others to adopt that strategy as a part of general wisdom.
— Chet Hawkins
In my world 'wisdom' is at least as loaded a term as 'knowledge'. — Bylaw
Do you understand how that hierarchy is wrong? It is only really desire, fear, anger; as additive. That is the behind the scenes wrongness of that model. That is a fear-centric model. That fear admits to desire and places it lowly. Then it sees itself in the middle. It does not even acknowledge that anger is what finally causes wisdom in that progression. And keep in mind the error structure of that progression is still including all the elements in my model, just incorrectly juxtaposed.I use that one also, but I notice a lot of people have a hierarchy belief, knowledge, wisdom. With the last term being the best. — Bylaw
I agree.Of course this is not necessarily a spectum of certainty and an indicate type. But It seems to me allowing oneself to categorize 'my beliefs X and Y are wisdom' is as easily misused as doing that with the category knowledge. — Bylaw
Again, and for the thousandth time in this thread it seems, I will say that the usefulness of the distinction is the problem. It IS an expression of probability and not truth.The trouble is that when most people say 'know' most others that have not already come to doubt their knowledge incorrectly assume that matter is settled.
I'm not close to anyone who does this. Assume it is settled, period, shall not be questioned. There are many situations where I just move forward with what they've said as the case. And I like having, for example, my wife using think and know - or some other similar categories. I don't assume when she says know that she cannot be wrong, but I work with it in a different way from 'think'. I think I shut off the stove. I know I shut off the stove. Yes, she might have hallucinated or shut off something else and been confused. But she's got a great record when sure and I find the distinction useful. I certainly don't want her walking around saying I believe regardless of her certainty. If she says she knows, but I am aware of things that put this in doubt, well, I may well go back up and check. She just got terrible news. She's had a couple of shots - she doesn't drink, but just showing some obvious examples of things that might affect me - and also might keep her from saying she knows also, given her self-awareness. — Bylaw
That is a horridly immoral position to take.The trouble is that most people stop caring or thinking when that word is used and they forgo the other 30-15% that is where the real value is - Chet Hawkins
I don't find it useful to follow rules that might good for most people to follow. — Bylaw
I agree. More errors on THEIR part.Also I think if most people stopped using those words, they wouldn't stop thinking they knew, nor would they stop conveying that they are right and you go against their belief at your own danger. — Bylaw
Indeed, an idea and assertion that I maintain. I have defended that position in the words of this post.I mean, you responded to me by saying that in the future I will suffer if I don't do as you believe we all should here, advice you categorize as wisdom. — Bylaw
Correct. And suffering becomes greater with awareness. Now that I have warned you and that situation exists in the world, you will begin to see and understand more where it comes into play. It will rankle and tease you as an idea from the sidelines, until you make a better choice on its veracity.So, while adhering to your own guideline you spoke without qualification what you classify as wisdom and predicted that I would suffer in the future. — Bylaw
Your need for certainty comes out clearly in this suggestion that allowing for certainty in others that are equally deluded in its existence harmonizes with. You like those that are like you, all fear. The comfort of similar beliefs is dangerous.I mean, honestly. I'd rather someone said 'I know.' I don't assume either one of you is correct, but in a sense of I feel like the other person is being more honest even if they are incorrect about being right and infallible. — Bylaw
When "they" were expectations, were they "belief." And now that your expectations have been affirmed, are they knowledge? — ENOAH
Sorry, I regret any part I may have had in meeting your expectations. That was my lame attempt at returning to the root. — ENOAH
But never mind we cannot know with 100% certainty. That reveals another eerie fact about our experience. We cannot know truth period. — ENOAH
expect something, to think it most likely, is not necessarily to believe it will happen — Janus
I'm not claiming there is any right or wrong, or fact of the matter there. — Janus
I think we can know many things with certainty. — Janus
Is that not, then dependant upon our definitions of certainty? Assume 100% is a fitting adjective. I.e., that there is absolutely no room for doubt or possibility. Still? I personally cannot see that anywhere — ENOAH
And you haven't said I am throwing up my hands or suggesting we should. But just to be clear, I am not saying that and.I simply agree and in fact, one is well advised that wisdom, being far trickier than knowledge alone, is something handled in far worse ways than only knowledge is. I admit that up front. This is the first such accusation leveled and I simply acquiesce.
But we cannot immorally throw our hands up and start just cutting bait. Fishing is the real task. The 'throw your hands up' and cut bait approach is only fear side Pragmatism. "get er done' usefulness IS NOT the way. — Chet Hawkins
I think we may be close in approach when you say something like this. You are using intuition, perhaps even, for example, Interoception to do an ongoing monitoring. Fine. I appreciate when people can be up front about this. I think it is a problem when people think there is no intuition involved in their reaching of conclusions. That somehow they manage to do deduction, only, for example. Some kind of clean bird's eye view logic alone.If any of my emotions is not ringing a low hanging bell of alert, but instead is ringing a highly hung bell, then I must attend that ringing. — Chet Hawkins
No, it would be immoral to pretend that guidelines and rules must be universal. No one should drive because some have Parkinson's (metaphorically speaking).I don't find it useful to follow rules that might good for most people to follow.
— Bylaw
That is a horridly immoral position to take. — Chet Hawkins
Right or wrong it is present. So, you come out with your prescription. Some follow it. Now other people hear wisdom regularly instead of knowledge and the same problems arise. Or the problem is driven underground: correct words are used and the exact same interpersonal, intra-personal dynamics continue. You can wag dogs in the short term, but you're not really changing anything but the surface. And wagging parts of the body is actually more intimate than wagging the choice of words.Do you understand how that hierarchy is wrong? It is only really desire, fear, anger; as additive. That is the behind the scenes wrongness of that model. That is a fear-centric model. — Chet Hawkins
Sure. Probability of what, however?Again, and for the thousandth time in this thread it seems, I will say that the usefulness of the distinction is the problem. It IS an expression of probability and not truth. — Chet Hawkins
Sure, that's a given in my outlook.We all have to place our bets on the actions and beliefs of others, as well as ourselves. It is no violation of trust to suggest that each of us is not perfect. — Chet Hawkins
I think predicting my internal states - so, not even mindreading me in the present, but telling me what I will be thinking and feeling - is unnecessary and, in specific often confused.Correct. And suffering becomes greater with awareness. Now that I have warned you and that situation exists in the world, you will begin to see and understand more where it comes into play. It will rankle and tease you as an idea from the sidelines, until you make a better choice on its veracity. — Chet Hawkins
Completely missing the point.Your need for certainty comes out clearly in this suggestion that allowing for certainty in others that are equally deluded in its existence harmonizes with. You like those that are like you, all fear. The comfort of similar beliefs is dangerous. — Chet Hawkins
I do not agree with that position either.radical or global skepticism — Janus
It is obvious that your eyes see and that the objects are there, and are real. That's not where the uncertainty is. It's in this, my expression of that hypothetical event, and, with respect, it's in yours. We do not disagree that when we look we know and see that we have hands. As to what "your" or simply "knowledge" of that event is, that's where we differ. — ENOAH
If "my" skepticism about that must be relegated to "radical skepticism," so be it. — ENOAH
Either way, your OP was perhaps more interesting to some than you might have intended/expected. Sincerely, Thank you. — ENOAH
Can you explain? — Janus
So, yes, you are saying that, as I define it. That means anything in the same pattern as 'but saying know or knowing is useful and understood by most' is effectively throwing your hands up and taking a short cut for efficiency and fait.I simply agree and in fact, one is well advised that wisdom, being far trickier than knowledge alone, is something handled in far worse ways than only knowledge is. I admit that up front. This is the first such accusation leveled and I simply acquiesce.
But we cannot immorally throw our hands up and start just cutting bait. Fishing is the real task. The 'throw your hands up' and cut bait approach is only fear side Pragmatism. "get er done' usefulness IS NOT the way.
— Chet Hawkins
And you haven't said I am throwing up my hands or suggesting we should. But just to be clear, I am not saying that and. — Bylaw
I mean, of course. I am the one advocating for intuition and desire as EQUAL to logic and reason.If any of my emotions is not ringing a low hanging bell of alert, but instead is ringing a highly hung bell, then I must attend that ringing.
— Chet Hawkins
I think we may be close in approach when you say something like this. You are using intuition, perhaps even, for example, Interoception to do an ongoing monitoring. Fine. I appreciate when people can be up front about this. I think it is a problem when people think there is no intuition involved in their reaching of conclusions. That somehow they manage to do deduction, only, for example. Some kind of clean bird's eye view logic alone. — Bylaw
We disagree here. Morality is objective and people's and culture's opinions DO NOT MATTER to that distinction. Such differences only serve as arguing points where there should be none.I don't find it useful to follow rules that might good for most people to follow.
— Bylaw
That is a horridly immoral position to take.
— Chet Hawkins
No, it would be immoral to pretend that guidelines and rules must be universal. No one should drive because some have Parkinson's (metaphorically speaking). — Bylaw
I get what you are saying and yes the moral action is harder and that is fine and partly the point. What some idiots are still going to do is not really the debate here. I am trying to get non-idiots to agree to a better truth approach.Do you understand how that hierarchy is wrong? It is only really desire, fear, anger; as additive. That is the behind the scenes wrongness of that model. That is a fear-centric model.
— Chet Hawkins
Right or wrong it is present. So, you come out with your prescription. Some follow it. Now other people hear wisdom regularly instead of knowledge and the same problems arise. Or the problem is driven underground: correct words are used and the exact same interpersonal, intra-personal dynamics continue. You can wag dogs in the short term, but you're not really changing anything but the surface. And wagging parts of the body is actually more intimate than wagging the choice of words. — Bylaw
Yes-ish and not really relevant. The point is being made here in the rare air for people of a quality that say they are for that sort of thing to discuss. My guess is, if such people are not ready for it, then maybe the general public is not either, and that is really sad. Still, the general idea of the point is important enough for everyone to be at least exposed to.The same problems seep out of the undealt with unconscious patterns and imprinting. — Bylaw
It's precisely not cosmetic. Cosmetic is a change on the surface that means little. This is not that. It's the reverse of that. Its addressing the problem of words that poison deeper understanding, specifically NOT cosmetic. Way to get that completely wrong.Perhaps you have a program to deal with these also, but so far I see a focus and to me fear of certain words. They can certainly be problematic, but changing them is consmetic. — Bylaw
And we should never say 'know' about a bet. You're proving my point for me.Again, and for the thousandth time in this thread it seems, I will say that the usefulness of the distinction is the problem. It IS an expression of probability and not truth.
— Chet Hawkins
Sure. Probability of what, however?
We all have to place our bets on the actions and beliefs of others, as well as ourselves. — Bylaw
I know we agree on that point.It is no violation of trust to suggest that each of us is not perfect.
— Chet Hawkins
Sure, that's a given in my outlook. — Bylaw
Nonetheless, I stand behind my belief as stated. It's bound to come up and soon, in everyone's life reading this thread.Correct. And suffering becomes greater with awareness. Now that I have warned you and that situation exists in the world, you will begin to see and understand more where it comes into play. It will rankle and tease you as an idea from the sidelines, until you make a better choice on its veracity.
— Chet Hawkins
I think predicting my internal states - so, not even mindreading me in the present, but telling me what I will be thinking and feeling - is unnecessary and, in specific often confused. — Bylaw
Granted, I, like everyone, makes assumptions. The difference is that I call that awareness and belief and not knowledge. You should to.You seem to have met certain kind of resistance to your ideas and then assume you understand what anyone is like when you encounter them. — Bylaw
And I encounter almost nothing but that. Meaning the word know is no more useful in reality, and actually less useful in almost all cases than them saying they believe. I mean, really, you are proving my point over and over again. Don't you KNOW that?There are people out there who use the word know, but also rapidly realize that what they thought they knew they didn't.
So, when I encounter then, sure, they come at me with assumptions, but then they have feedback loops which lead them to rapidly get off their positions. — Bylaw
Some do and some do not. But neither one of them actually knows.You can have people who religiously avoid 'know' for example. But end up continuing the pattern of assumptions. They don't recognize anomalies very quickly, despite their epistemological position and use of language. — Bylaw
Just like the word know does for me whenever I hear it. It becomes a lesson in humility for the speaker in almost every case. Nope, you didn't know did you?This is sets off warning bells in me. — Bylaw
It's much less 'parts of the brain' and much more intent.I appreciate the situation's effects: online, words on a screen, philosophy forum - the last entailing tendencies to have positions on logic, reason supposedly versus intuition, what parts of the brain are honored and so on. — Bylaw
I just want them to understand two points really:Your need for certainty comes out clearly in this suggestion that allowing for certainty in others that are equally deluded in its existence harmonizes with. You like those that are like you, all fear. The comfort of similar beliefs is dangerous.
— Chet Hawkins
Completely missing the point.
They do not have the same beliefs and this is reflected in their language.
To me it's like you want to teach used car salesmen (taking that metaphorically) NLP and more cognitive science.
And given that those people already exist, I get my warning bells despite whatever cosmetic dress up they are wearing.
To me focus on the dress up is fear based because it assumes we need people to use certain words. I get it: raising the issue around words may help some people begin to notice a pattern you and I notice. It can be a starting point to question not just practice but what is going on in them. — Bylaw
You'd be surprised. Language effects great change. So changing language can do that as well.But the project is not actually noticing what is going on. It presumes this kind of reformative dialogue could EVER get at the roots of the problem. — Bylaw
I believe that you are right in that. But that is not the point. The point is that my point is better, even if it will not be useful enough to work (and it still would slowly).I don't think you understand the fear not being noticed in your assessment of the situation. This approach is not going to get at the roots of the problems. — Bylaw
Yes, but progress is incremental and we need to start taking steps.In part because they are not going to listen. But also the why, the what is going on ontologically that keeps them from listening AND why if they listened we just get a new layer over the problem. We get slightly more sophisticated problem makers. — Bylaw
I have no idea what you are referring to now. I embrace fear and since I have great anger, I can balance a lot of fear so it does not get over-expressed. Over-expressed fear is what I am arguing against. That is a fear approach with not enough balancing anger or desire.I hear a lot of 'this is your fear'. But I experience someone who has not even faced certain fears, lecturing about fear. Fear denial is a problem. — Bylaw
You are entirely incorrect about what I am denying.And yes, I see that you are confident in you system of feedback. You'll hear those warning bells from fear also. But the denial is built into the model your presenting. And then the moment you are denying fear you are also denying anger and desire. For example. I am not saying that is the only direction these denials flow. — Bylaw
If you give in to 'how things are', human delusions, as opposed to truth, that is exactly what that means.None of this means that I think nothing can be done or hands have to go up in despair or a sense of futility or that mine do. — Bylaw
HUH? I meant like these predictions of outcomes are doable and can be replicated, for instance Fitness Functions*, what good is it? I am defending the uncertainty when I said that, I could be more clear next time...I am saying the awareness is gained, some are built for it others are not. Predictions are just the truth that was always to occur anyways....But is this telling of ANY nature of the Universe? I dont think so.....you cant force the awareness you are not bound to obtain, thats your BLOOD...blame your ancestors for that lack or accept self in its own nature. Where do we belong to judge from rightfully? — Kizzy
Being in the universe you assert that your experience shows nothing of it? That is comically wrong. — Chet Hawkins
You're making me responsible for everything. That is tucked into the word 'it' above. You are hallucinating a future where you and like-minded have managed to change everyone's mind about the use of those words AND you believe the consequences of them doing this, should you succeed, will be the ones in your mental images. You are then comparing this image with the image of what happens if this particular change does not take place and putting that on my table. k You have approaches to improving things. I have approaches to improving things. I haven't set of a pattern of continuous acceptable incorrectness. We find ourselves in the middle of a situation, with an incredible array of causes and systems. We can choose to reform or revolutionize or adjust or....and so on......different parts of the whole, putting our energy in those parts and in those ways that match our values and where we can have the most effect, in the direction we want things to move.It sets up a pattern of continuous 'acceptable' incorrectness that is participated in by almost everyone. — Chet Hawkins
I haven't weight in on cultural differences.We disagree here. Morality is objective and people's and culture's opinions DO NOT MATTER to that distinction. Such differences only serve as arguing points where there should be none — Chet Hawkins
It's extreme. I often use extreme examples to get a foot in the door. In the realm of epistemology, of self-awareness, or introspection, of intuition and so on, there is an incredibly vast range of skills sets and approaches. I am not going to follow rules, unless the consequences of breaking them are so negative, that are put in place for people who are far away from me on the spectrum in the relevant skill set.Your example is horrendous and not relevant. — Chet Hawkins
What some idiots do is part of the real world where I live. This is not a side issue. And to be less harsh...the real world includes what happens when people are given cosmetic language based changes but don't really change. I live in that world. I am skeptical about these kinds of language-based reformations, for reasons given in previous posts on this specific language reform you are proposing.I get what you are saying and yes the moral action is harder and that is fine and partly the point. What some idiots are still going to do is not really the debate here. — Chet Hawkins
My point was that I think it is misleading to propose this kind of reformation since it is not the source of the problems. Even the epistemological naivete is not.Yes-ish and not really relevant. The point is being made here in the rare air for people of a quality that say they are for that sort of thing to discuss. My guess is, if such people are not ready for it, then maybe the general public is not either, and that is really sad. Still, the general idea of the point is important enough for everyone to be at least exposed to. — Chet Hawkins
Are there language-based reformations that have eliminated evils?It's precisely not cosmetic. Cosmetic is a change on the surface that means little. This is not that. It's the reverse of that. Its addressing the problem of words that poison deeper understanding, specifically NOT cosmetic. Way to get that completely wrong. — Chet Hawkins
The point we agree on.And we should never say 'know' about a bet. You're proving my point for me. — Chet Hawkins
And here you are making my point for me.Nonetheless, I stand behind my belief as stated. It's bound to come up and soon, in everyone's life reading this thread. — Chet Hawkins
I thought you believed this but it's good to have it clearly written.1) No one really knows things so just say 'I believe that ...' instead of know.
2) Just because no one knows anything does not mean that one person's ideas are not better than the other ones. — Chet Hawkins
There may well be an example in the past, but if you have a specific one, share it. And, of course, even if there isn't one in the past, I'm not ruling it out, but it's not my main objection.You'd be surprised. Language effects great change. So changing language can do that as well. — Chet Hawkins
I agree with this. But what this actually looks like and if someone is, as a specific individual evaluating themselves correctly...that's a different issue.Greater wisdom, greater balance, is actually more of each emotion. — Chet Hawkins
Well, yes. VERY indirectly we are indeed responsible for everything, each of us, as in we are all each other really, when the objective truth is uncovered. That does not mean of course that subjectively some of us are not more responsible than others, especially in the case of their own personally scoped immoral choices.It sets up a pattern of continuous 'acceptable' incorrectness that is participated in by almost everyone.
— Chet Hawkins
You're making me responsible for everything. — Bylaw
Well! When I see formulations like this sentence, I know (ha ha) that we are in for a real treat. Let's see where this goes.That is tucked into the word 'it' above. — Bylaw
Yes, that is what imagining a better future is about. It's important not to dip into Consequentialism in either way amid this endeavor. I admit that this is only my belief at present and I have stated my case as to why. This has advantages. That is, until society tries IT (<--- the terrifying it) my way, I can kind of stand on ceremony and keep appealing for sense and wisdom. If - all of society (a bit more terrifying for real) - were to adopt this idea theory and try it, they would either become enamored of it in short order as the right way mostly, or they would all be like, we prefer being foolishly certain, ... please bring back 'porch monkey' as a thing. No monkeys nor porches were harmed forming this paragraph.You are hallucinating a future where you and like-minded have managed to change everyone's mind about the use of those words AND you believe the consequences of them doing this, should you succeed, will be the ones in your mental images. — Bylaw
I get it. Most of history is the blind leading the blind. Why should now be the exception?You are then comparing this image with the image of what happens if this particular change does not take place and putting that on my table. k You have approaches to improving things. I have approaches to improving things. I haven't set of a pattern of continuous acceptable incorrectness. — Bylaw
Our 'values' are mostly horridly polarized foolishness. One has but to take a casual cursory glance at todays court proceedings (if the term proceed means anything other than 'get er done') to witness the rather pointless chicanery that passes as 'leadership' in the United States.We find ourselves in the middle of a situation, with an incredible array of causes and systems. We can choose to reform or revolutionize or adjust or....and so on......different parts of the whole, putting our energy in those parts and in those ways that match our values and where we can have the most effect, in the direction we want things to move. — Bylaw
I know (ha ha). I am aware of that (better). Please forgive my fit of whataboutism because I think it's clear neither one of us is convinced by the arguments of the other. We have both stated our case in many ways. Whataboutism is all thats left. I'm looking into the well dressed strawman closet at this point. Nod's as good as a wink to a blind man, eh?We disagree here. Morality is objective and people's and culture's opinions DO NOT MATTER to that distinction. Such differences only serve as arguing points where there should be none
— Chet Hawkins
I haven't weight in on cultural differences. — Bylaw
Amen brother Bylaw! Preach! Rules are for order-apologists. Real beings take responsibility for all their actions and beliefs and therefore are free to break poorly conceived or situationally inaccurate rules. Isn't having a spine wonderful? Has mass, occupies space. Yep! I guess it matters. Even a chihuahua can stand its ground with a mean loud attitude. And that IS real.Your example is horrendous and not relevant.
— Chet Hawkins
It's extreme. I often use extreme examples to get a foot in the door. In the realm of epistemology, of self-awareness, or introspection, of intuition and so on, there is an incredibly vast range of skills sets and approaches. I am not going to follow rules, unless the consequences of breaking them are so negative, that are put in place for people who are far away from me on the spectrum in the relevant skill set. — Bylaw
Yes, they allude to a strawman with a strawman analogy. Great ... delusional presentation of other delusions. Where does it end. Just give a machete! It's getting to be too thick up in this jungle.I'm not going to stop using metaphors or analogies because many people misuse them. As a kind of parallel example. — Bylaw
It is though. Despite protestations to the contrary, the idiots WILL GO where various pipers lead them. The smart and wise among us ARE INDEED capable of steering them wisely or not. The trouble is now meta though.I get what you are saying and yes the moral action is harder and that is fine and partly the point. What some idiots are still going to do is not really the debate here.
— Chet Hawkins
What some idiots do is part of the real world where I live. This is not a side issue. — Bylaw
We need more harshness, not less. The delusions of pleasure and peace are costing us dearly right now, and will continue to be a increasingly difficult problem. See the enlightened visionary future of Wall-E as a footnote of likely dystopian scenarios. Idiocracy was a little too street/stupid.And to be less harsh... — Bylaw
I am skeptical as well because we have not really tried all that hard, ever. This is new paradigm territory. I admit it. As OneMug mentioned, the problems of today will take better, as in meta level better solutions. Muzzling sheer forms of stupidity is probably required. That is not a full on muzzle. We love the puppies. But if they keep biting themselves or others, they get the cone of shame.the real world includes what happens when people are given cosmetic language based changes but don't really change. I live in that world. I am skeptical about these kinds of language-based reformations, for reasons given in previous posts on this specific language reform you are proposing. — Bylaw
Yes it is (one source). You just do not want to admit that. It's ok. It remains a big source of the problems. Fear's need for certainty in so many ways is a/the fear problem. Its manifestation across all behaviors is similar in pattern to JUST THAT.Yes-ish and not really relevant. The point is being made here in the rare air for people of a quality that say they are for that sort of thing to discuss. My guess is, if such people are not ready for it, then maybe the general public is not either, and that is really sad. Still, the general idea of the point is important enough for everyone to be at least exposed to.
— Chet Hawkins
My point was that I think it is misleading to propose this kind of reformation since it is not the source of the problems. — Bylaw
I agree there. We are talking about intent and intent led by over-expressed fear. Naivete is best discussed as an innocence of sorts. That is balanced as a default. So, I am NOT talking about naivete when I speak of order-apology or fear over-expressions. I am talking about living in fear such that you need to know and prefer to speak as if knowing is a good idea, as opposed to accepting the risks of life and living it that are required to be wise. In humility, we assert that we cannot know, so we proceed then carefully. Those wanting to say they 'know' are those wanting really NOT TO KNOW, finally, so that they can effectively pretend to know and mess things up without ... care. It's a baked in short-cut aim. Fear does not want to admit this.Even the epistemological naivete is not. — Bylaw
Pre-1900 citizen(idiot): 'Has an airplane ever flown?'It's precisely not cosmetic. Cosmetic is a change on the surface that means little. This is not that. It's the reverse of that. Its addressing the problem of words that poison deeper understanding, specifically NOT cosmetic. Way to get that completely wrong.
— Chet Hawkins
Are there language-based reformations that have eliminated evils? — Bylaw
We cannot KNOW. Therefore a statement or assertion is only a belief. If we agree on that point the thread is mostly concluded (and not to be a stickler for reality checks but, in my favor).And we should never say 'know' about a bet. You're proving my point for me.
— Chet Hawkins
The point we agree on. — Bylaw
You're only comical at this point. 'Bound to ...' is certainty? Not at all. It's like saying 'highly probable' or 'I believe'. So, no, again, I am not proving your point, but you are proving mine, again and again.Nonetheless, I stand behind my belief as stated. It's bound to come up and soon, in everyone's life reading this thread.
— Chet Hawkins
And here you are making my point for me.
'It's bound to come up.' This is an expression of certainty. — Bylaw
I've aready taken great pains to explain the difference between anger-confidence and fear-need-for-certainty. Either you get it or you don't, but, no, you're again wrong, it is a casual thing for me to admit as I have in so very many posts that I KNOW nothing. I have only belief. I speak confidently, yes. Do not confuse confidence with certainty.'everyone's life'. You can tell me that 'really' you never mean 'know' but I experience you are exactly as certain as the people who do. — Bylaw
Only time will tell. Assuming I hold true to patterns of the past and place emphasis on and participation within a community of people that at least pretend to understand my arguments, we can revisit the question in 5 years and that would indeed be interesting.In response to my saying the mind reading is unnecessary you use bound and everyone.
Will my interaction with you have any effects?
Will my interaction with someone who uses 'know' have any effects? — Bylaw
Almost (<--- pay attention to that word) certainly! Attention to detail (fear side value) is something I do have, despite it being perhaps less formalized than some classical philosophy academics here. That is in fact endearing and proper for a more balanced approach that allows said supposed philosophy to reach the general public. So, by all means, continue with the fear-side separation and be separated thereby. That is at cross purposes to the aim of wisdom.How often? Has the likelihood increased because of your attitudinal change and no longer using 'know'? — Bylaw
You have but to re-read this thread and even this post in it to discover, if you really look, at how carefully my words are chosen. I am adept at this and post extremely detailed (elongated lol) posts that actually explain my arguments but in plain English so everyone can understand. I am no ivory tower academic or Pragmatic sell-out.Has the attitude actually changed and in what way do we see this change in you? — Bylaw
I venture to say frankly that most people who have interacted with me here consider me in some way different than almost anyone else they have ever had dialogue with. If not, well, that still speaks volumes about ... them, and their observational powers.How will we in Philosophy Forum notice the differences between you, in dialogue with us, and someone who uses know? — Bylaw
And missing the point or trying to label my admitted guesses as to your future as 'bad', just cuz is not an argument either. What is qualification to you? What level of acumen must be shown that can transcend some external third party certification or credentialing? I have made an extensive career out of beating the many Phds I work with, not by intent, but by blunt force trauma, as in they could not solve the problems, so I was called in to do so. As few of them were worth their papers. Most by far were not even close.I can certainly find people who use 'know' who mind read
and stand by their mind reading and present their positions without qualification and who in response to my criticism or questioning start to tell me about my emotions and how these lead to my not accepting the truth of their beliefs. And I can find people who don't do this who use 'know'. — Bylaw
Well, again, time will decide. Risk is acceptable. Opinion does not really matter. Truth does.To boil that down. I can't even tell if it's cosmetic in you. — Bylaw
I have been fairly clear throughout this dialogue. Many would call my clarity blunt even. It has been fun.1) No one really knows things so just say 'I believe that ...' instead of know.
2) Just because no one knows anything does not mean that one person's ideas are not better than the other ones.
— Chet Hawkins
I thought you believed this but it's good to have it clearly written. — Bylaw
My great intuitive leap on this issue would be that the military mandates much of its chatter. The reason is that lives depend on the second by second efficiency of what they say in the field. If you watch Star Trek Discovery its so comically bad in that way. The original series had military adjacent speech and was therefore far more accurate and sensible. The foolishness of blather seen even on the last few shows would have them all dead in nanoseconds in that future world. But luckily for those bozos the writers are infinitely powerful and on their side, as a pandering group of sycophants. In roleplaying games I had to put segment limits on the syllables of soliloquies for the carebear drama lovers of today's roleplaying world, because if they said one tenth of what they say in combat situations they would lose initiative, suffer several surprise attacks and be dead and bleeding on the floor or gassed out on the ethereal plane before anyone understood their ridiculous self-indulgent nuances.You'd be surprised. Language effects great change. So changing language can do that as well.
— Chet Hawkins
There may well be an example in the past, but if you have a specific one, share it. And, of course, even if there isn't one in the past, I'm not ruling it out, but it's not my main objection. — Bylaw
A matter of debate for sure. And here we are.Greater wisdom, greater balance, is actually more of each emotion.
— Chet Hawkins
I agree with this. But what this actually looks like and if someone is, as a specific individual evaluating themselves correctly...that's a different issue. — Bylaw
I must agree. Thank you for stating that. Yes.So, to focus on what we seem to agree on, we both seem to see positive things about fear, desire and anger. We wish to have these in balance. We also value intuition and my sense is we both see intuition where others think they are going on some intuitionless immaculate logic unsoiled by intuition - and likely have poor intuition about what they actually are doing in their minds.
These are not small agreements, so I think it's good to emphasize them. — Bylaw
I would say the culture in such lofty forums is decidedly order-apology, foolish in the extant need for certainty, devoted to rather pointless qualifications, and entrenched in esoteric language that is a balzing impediment to their de-facto goals as 'bringers of wisdom'. But, ... yeah!Intuition and emotions are often denigrated in philosophy forums, directly or implicitly. — Bylaw
Exactly, and the HUGE, world-shattering truth is that logic and thought are all fear-based. Fear, last time I checked was not only an emotion, but it is properly and very improperly denigrated. If thought were properly understood as a manifestation of fear, their bulwark of delusional certainty would properly collapse.And there can often be this implicit or explicit post-Enlightenment judgment that really it's best if these things are weeded out of everything from epistemology, science, politics, interpersonal interactions, discussions and so on - and with some real-world horrible trends where actually modifications through social pressure and even technology are trying to be put in place to eliminate emotions and intuition. — Bylaw
How will we in Philosophy Forum notice the differences between you, in dialogue with us, and someone who uses know? — Bylaw
So, when I look at my hands I cannot but be certain that I have hands — Janus
The way you express this is jumbled. I DO NOT state ever that things are 'undecidable'. That is your word and very wrong. Everything is decidable, just always partly wrong. That is the nature of belief.How will we in Philosophy Forum notice the differences between you, in dialogue with us, and someone who uses know?
— Bylaw
The irony is that Chet Hawkins constantly talks about things which are undecidable, and hence mere matters of opinion, as though he knows the truth concerning them, while refusing to use the word "know". — Janus
No, you actually do not know. And every time you claim to, you prove that point.Others addressing like questions will acknowledge they are just expressing their opinions and will reserve the word "know" only for those (countless) mundane cases where we actually do know. — Janus
If the word 'intellectual' means deceiver and or delusional, sure. But I have met quite a large class of people that are what I call 'intellectual' and they are more dedicated to truth, you know, wisdom, ACTUAL philosophy, instead of the stuffy academic version, a deluded stiff interpretation of what is and is not intellectual. If you believe you are on the honest side of that debate, it will be very hard to help you.I think the intellectual honesty belongs to the latter group. — Janus
Are you saying that looking at your hands (sensory observation) provides a justification for the belief that you have hands? — Sam26
The way you express this is jumbled. I DO NOT state ever that things are 'undecidable'. That is your word and very wrong. Everything is decidable, just always partly wrong. That is the nature of belief. — Chet Hawkins
I do not refuse to use the word 'know' as I have shown in many cases in this thread. I bet I wrote it more than anyone else did. — Chet Hawkins
Hi Sam26, I am glad you bring this up. It is kind of confusing TO UNDERSTAND, and apparently not just for me to understand that statements like Janus' "So, when I look at my hands I cannot but be certain that I have hands — Janus," that are used NOT to defend "knowledge" but defend "certainty". I wonder the same thing,There is no epistemological justification for the belief that you have hands. To know this is the case ask yourself if there is any good justification for doubting the belief that you have hands. If there are good reasons to doubt, then justification makes sense, but if there are no good reasons to doubt, then justification doesn't make sense. The connection between knowledge and doubting is an important epistemological connection — Sam26
because to me that seems like the efforts to defend "knowing" are largely misdirected when used in this sense. COMMON SENSE....where the absence of doubt is taken as sufficient grounds for certainty.Are you saying that looking at your hands (sensory observation) provides a justification for the belief that you have hands? — Sam26
So Janus is onto something and Sam26 was wise enough to point it out... The distinction between certainty and knowledge is crucial.Are you saying that looking at your hands (sensory observation) provides a justification for the belief that you have hands? — Sam26
No. I'm not thinking in terms of justification. I just see my hands, feel them, use them, so I know I have hands. Doubt about it is impossible unless I buy into some silly artificial possibility like "brain in a vat" or " evil demon. — Janus
@Chet HawkinsNow we move on to a separate matter:
Second assertion: We cannot be certain of any justification applied to a belief that 'makes' it or transforms it into knowledge. — Chet Hawkins
I like this — Kizzy
what is the issue THEN lets say, if I cant hear? We show, point, gesture...we emote, we react, we acknowledge, we affirm with gestures, faces, body lang. we move forward, we think, we believe...how do you "know" someone actually "knows" what they claim?....Do we question them, based on what? Your standards? What you accept, what you refuse to accept, what you tolerate, what you are determined--what you are WILLING to do to understand? What if no one questions YOUR certainty? How do you? Why bring up "knowing I have hands" ??? Why would you question your hands, why would anyone that SEES you question that? Why would anyone that can ONLY HEAR you claiming that you have hands, believe you? unless they can FEEL you, touch you...or do those that dont have hands, eyes, ears or those over distance communicating through a screen just have to BELIEVE in the fact they think they know you?My issue is that we do know many things, so eliminating the word 'know' would be impossible in any case, because thenwe could no longer speak accurately about our experiences. — Janus
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