Evolution relies on what you call 'mistakes' as you well enough know. And the rate of copying 'mistakes' evolves itself because 'error correcting genes' are also a thing. Thus 'mistakes' or as I like to call them 'variations' are more common in some parts of the genome than others. — unenlightened

I agree. The point I am making is that we are not intelligently designed by an all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods.

Yes, there can be mistakes when copying genes — Truth Seeker

If so then @unenlightened's point stands: there can be no mistakes when copying genes since we are not intelligently designed by a God or a team of Gods.

If so then unenlightened's point stands: there can be no mistakes when copying genes since we are not intelligently designed by a God or a team of Gods. — Moliere

I disagree. When a gene is copied correctly, there is no mistake. When it is copied incorrectly, there is a mistake.

The point I am making is that we are not intelligently designed by an all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods. — Truth Seeker

How do we know that? How do we know that without divine/simulation intervention, there would be ten times as many car crashes a day, but god/simulation designers are constantly intervening in an unnoticeable way? Once theism or simulation theory is taken seriously, we really can't say that evolution is not being directed.

I

The point I am making is that we are not intelligently designed by an all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods.
— Truth Seeker

How do we know that? How do we know that without divine/simulation intervention, there would be ten times as many car crashes a day, but god/simulation designers are constantly intervening in an unnoticeable way? Once theism or simulation theory is taken seriously, we really can't say that evolution is not being directed. — RogueAI

Did you not read about all the design flaws in organisms and the extinction of 99.9% of all the species to exist on Earth so far? Why would all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods create flawed organisms? Why didn't all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and death? Why not make all living things nonconsumers instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores and some parasites? It's possible that there is/are one or more evil Gods and he/she/it/they made flawed organisms and caused suffering, inequality, injustice, and death because he/she/it/they are evil.

Did you not read about all the design flaws in organisms? Why would all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods create flawed organisms? Why didn't all-knowing and all-powerful God or Gods prevent all suffering, inequality, injustice, and death? Why not make all living things nonconsumers instead of making some autotrophs, some herbivores, some carnivores, some omnivores and some parasites? It's possible that there is one or more evil Gods and he/she/it/they made flawed organisms and caused suffering, inequality, injustice, and death because they are evil. — Truth Seeker

If god(s) did what you suggest, it might become obvious that the world is god-made. Perhaps the gods like the world to appear natural. The existence of organisms without flaws would give the game away, so to speak. And none of what you said applies to simulation creators/designers.

Presentism seems the only one with anything even approaching any evidence behind it. The rest are entirely speculative, or interpretive - meaning not empirically interesting.

Have read the thread and that's somewhat why I say the above.

Eternalism/Block Universe Theory: This theory suggests that all moments in time, past, present, and future, exist simultaneously. Time is viewed as a sort of block, where every event that has ever occurred or will occur already exists, similar to how all the frames of a movie exist on a film strip. — Truth Seeker

I would say the present and future exist simultaneously or rather, the future is necessarily co-existing with the present. And this is evidenced by certain conditions in the universe that must-exist-in-order-for-the-present to exist but which also would require some time in the future to decay, thereby ensuring that some future will exist also. The law of mass conservation ensures the future, for example.

I wish you've created a poll in your OP.

I wish you've created a poll in your OP. — L'éléphant

I have granted your wish! I have edited the original post to include a poll.

I am an agnostic as I can't know whether God or Gods exist or not.

I agree.

I am an agnostic as I can't know whether God or Gods exist or not. You didn't answer my questions. — Truth Seeker

Are you agnostic about Simulation Theory? Bostrom claims it's more likely than not we're in a simulation. Evolution in a simulation is, by definition, an intelligently designed process.

I have granted your wish! I have edited the original post to include a poll. — Truth Seeker

Thank you, Master. Now I have two more!

:lol:

Are you agnostic about Simulation Theory? — RogueAI

Yes, I am also agnostic about the Simulation Hypothesis as it is not possible to test this hypothesis.

Divine justice is usually conceived as tautological. Think "I made the world and I make the rules, so I can do what I like." — unenlightened

How is doing what I like the same as justice?

I recommend that you read: https://www.evilbible.com and watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wk3V0Qi8W30 Thank you.

Don't proselytise dude, it's considered uncool on this site. And if you want to argue about the Bible, do it with someone who takes the Bible seriously - that's not me!

How is doing what I like the same as justice? — Truth Seeker

My garden - my rules. Slugs and caterpillars are sent to hell, and philosophers get fresh vegetables in due season. When you make a universe, you get to set the rules. You don't let your creation boss you about.

Don't proselytise dude, it's considered uncool on this site. And if you want to argue about the Bible, do it with someone who takes the Bible seriously - that's not me! — unenlightened

I didn't proselytise. I responded to what you said. The word proselytise means "to induce someone to convert to one's faith" - that clearly is not what I did. I offered you information relevant to your statement - that is all. I take the Bible very seriously because it has had and continues to have serious effects on billions of lives. It has altered the course of human history for both better and worse. It has been and continues to be the most influential book on Earth.

My garden - my rules. Slugs and caterpillars are sent to hell, and philosophers get fresh vegetables in due season. When you make a universe, you get to set the rules. You don't let your creation boss you about. — unenlightened

That's not justice. That's a tyranny without any ethical principles that underpin justice.

I didn't proselytise. I responded to what you said. The word proselytise means "to induce someone to convert to one's faith" - that clearly is not what I did. — Truth Seeker

No you didn't. I didn't reference the Bible, you did. You responded to a dog whistle like a fanatic because I made a joke that involved the word "God". Other religions are available.

That's not justice. — Truth Seeker

Of course it is. IF God made you, he fucking owns you. Go talk to your breakfast about justice and convince it it wants to be eaten.

No you didn't. I didn't reference the Bible, you did. You responded to a dog whistle like a fanatic because I made a joke that involved the word "God". Other religions are available. — unenlightened

You said "divine justice". Since 31% of humans alive in 2010 identified as Christians, I brought up the Bible. We don't have religious population data for 2024 or else I would have quoted it. Once we have examined the Bible for divine justice, we can examine the Quran for divine justice as Muslims formed 23% of the human population in 2010. Once we have examined the Quran for divine justice we can examine the holy books of Hinduism for divine justice as 15% of the human population in 2010 were Hindus. We can keep going like this until we have have covered all the Gods of all the religions in the present and the past.

That's not justice.
— Truth Seeker
Of course it is. IF God made you, he fucking owns you. Go talk to your breakfast about justice and convince it it wants to be eaten. — unenlightened

I am a vegan and have been so for 18 years. I was a vegetarian before I became a vegan. I don't eat sentient beings. I want to be a total nonconsumer. If I could have genetically engineered myself to live without air, water, food and sunlight, I would have done so many years ago and would have offered it to others for free.

God or Gods can't own living things. Living things have intrinsic rights that God or Gods can't take away. Yes, if the Biblical God is real, then the Biblical God is able to kill living things but that makes the Biblical God evil, not just.

I am a vegan and have been so for 18 years. — Truth Seeker

Gooder than God. :lol:

I'm sorry. I already said that, but I hadn't realised your total fragility. Just ignore me, and I'll do likewise.

I am a vegan and have been so for 18 years.
— Truth Seeker

Gooder than God. :lol:

I'm sorry. I already said that, but I hadn't realised your total fragility. Just ignore me, and I'll do likewise. — unenlightened

What do you mean by my "total fragility"? Vegans are strong and ethical. We are not fragile. What about examining "divine justice"? Might is right is wrong.

That's so interesting. Thank you for sharing your insights about time. According to physicists, time is not on its own, it exists as spacetime. — Truth Seeker

Physicists say lots of things that they come to later regret upon a cursory examination of their language. Perhaps they should keep their mouths shut rather than have us be forced to listen to their mad ramblings from documentary to documentary on the subject matter.