I read what you said very well, and it’s obvious where you’ve gotten your information, what you’ve been taken in by, and where you stake your assumptions.

This is obvious because I (and others), unlike you, follow this stuff closely. You show up spouting talking points straight from conservative media, Trump tropes and other bromides that we’ve seen many times and which are indeed boring and ignorant. It’s “Well Hillary was an election denier too!” and similar statements. If you really see it as the same thing from what Trump was doing and continues to do, then “reason and logic” really doesn’t apply to you, and you deserve exactly what you’ve gotten.

It's the unequal and politicized application of the law that even some on the left are deeply concerned about. — fishfry

Let the Clintons and Bidens be jailed too for all I care. The Republicans were trying for years and continue to try. Their cases are so stupid it’s not worth discussing— what they should be doing is going after stock trading and other issues like that, but because they’re just as culpable, they won’t.

So it’s not unequal — for anyone paying attention, it’s been happening for years. See Clinton 1998 or Hillary’s emails or the current impeachment “inquiry” into Sleepy Joe. Trump’s hush money case is small potatoes, but because he’s such a moron and so blatantly corrupt, it’s easy to win in court. That’s the real difference. The other cases — like overthrowing an election — are more serious.

Smile! Make America smile again.

It is interesting to watch Stewart in his old show again after nearly a decade. So much less cringey than how other “talk show hosts” handle these things, in part because he prioritizes humor.

It’s fun that he’s back for the election.

When people start listening to clowns, then we get a circus.

Will refrain from linking to Antisocial Bullshit (or Patriots·Win or Gateway Pundit) further here...

Trump supporters call for riots and violent retribution after verdict
^{— Joseph Tanfani, Ned Parker, Peter Eisler · Reuters · May 31, 2024}
22 Experts Predict What the Trump Conviction Will Mean for 2024 and Beyond
^{— various · POLITICO · May 31, 2024}
MAGA faithful call for riots and lynchings after Trump’s guilty verdict
^{— Io Dodds · The Independent · Jun 1, 2024}
US 'Civil War' Predicted on Russian State TV
^{— Mandy Taheri · Newsweek · Jun 2, 2024}
Trump alludes to violence by supporters if he goes to jail - but says he’s fine with house arrest
^{— Andrew Feinberg · The Independent · Jun 3, 2024}

Tracing backward, who/what stands to benefit from the division unrest ... parts?

It doesn’t follow, for me. — NOS4A2

It's easier when you don't see them as people but as mere politicians.

He has become a folk devil. As a result, they have become the petty despots they claimed to have feared. — NOS4A2

They've always been that way.

Every time they mention democracy, the rule of law, or some other bromide, we are only reminded of how quick they are to violate them. — NOS4A2

Exactly it's amazing how much the entire U.S. government and all it's affiliations don't tire of this paradoxical rhetoric.

I watched excerpts of Garland’s response to the Jordan inquisition. While I agree with everything Garland said, his persona and delivery are weak. I wish there were a more forceful, telegenic and eloquent speaker in that vital role.

the J6 committee was a total politicized fraud. — fishfry

By the way, I don't accept that. I watched a great deal of the telecast, I found it compelling and right on target. Trump should never be considered for public office again, in light of what he was shown to have done. But again, the supine GOP have fallen in behind him, two officers who were injured trying to defend the Capital were booed by Republicans when they appeared before Pennsylvania's House of Representatives. The rot has well and truly set in.

In other news, Steve Bannon has (finally!) been ordered to report to prison.

By the way, I don't accept that. I watched a great deal of the telecast, I found it compelling and right on target. — Wayfarer

Didn't they throw certain GOP members off the committee or deny them membership, flouting longstanding procedures? I also hear they destroyed all their records. Thousands of hours of video are still suppressed.

Trump should never be considered for public office again, in light of what he was shown to have done. But again, the supine GOP have fallen in behind him, two officers who were injured trying to defend the Capital were booed by Republicans when they appeared before Pennsylvania's House of Representatives. The rot has well and truly set in. — Wayfarer

You know how this goes. I did not come here to out-talking-point anyone. I'll see your "two officers who were injured" and raise you an Ashli Babbitt. I daresay if a white cop had shot a black woman to death for no particular reason, and the cop skated without even an investigation, certain members of society would be burning down buildings.

I truly have no interest in debating J6. It was a protest that got out of hand. Many of the protesters were peacefully escorted into the building by the capitol police. Trump's prior request for the National Guard was turned down by Bowser and Pelosi. It was a setup. The hysteria that the Dems made out of the incident is a Reichstag fire for our times.

I watched the left destroy cities, get slaps on the wrist for throwing molotov cocktails into police cars, and set fire to police stations with cops inside. The double standard is blatant.

I hear Steve Bannon's going to prison for contempt of Congress. Eric Holder didn't. Why is that?

The politically biased application of the law is far more concerning than the prospect of a second Trump presidency.

I'll agree wholeheartedly that the GOP are supine. Trump is not a Republican. He's commandeered the party for his own purposes. The regular GOPs hate him and can't wait till they get their ineffectual and depressing party back after he's gone.

I did not come here to defend the merits of Trump. I asked if you would cut down the law to get at the Devil. Many on the left say yes. I think you will rue the day.

ps -- This just came across the wire. AG Garland will defy Congressional subpoenas at his whim. I assume you'll support his imprisonment.

https://twitter.com/cspan/status/1798007391801262179

A riot is not an attempt to overthrow a government. The fact you're trying to equate them underlines the rot Wayfarer is pointing to. Bringing up Babbitt in response to the shameful treatment of cops doing their jobs, as if that excuses such a response, underlines the same rot.

Take it from somebody looking at American Bullshit from the outside; it's been rotting since Reagan.

A riot is not an attempt to overthrow a government. — Benkei

Overthrow the government. That hysterical rhetoric is childish. Nobody overthrew the government. Handful of unarmed clowns in costumes. Guess you missed the leftists interrupting Kavanaugh hearing. Or the pro-Palestine protesters occupying Congress a few weeks ago. Selective outrage, selective application of the law.

The fact you're trying to equate them underlines the rot Wayfarer is pointing to. Bringing up Babbitt in response to the shameful treatment of chips doing their jobs, as if that excuses such a response, underlines the same rot. — Benkei

Not equating. Calling out the hypocrisy. Cop shoots protester to death, left doesn't give a shit because it was a right wing protester. If the races and political positions were reversed, it would be George Floyd all over again. A summer of looting, burning, and killing. The left condoned it. Kamala Harris started a fund for their bail. Said the riots would continue.

Take it from somebody looking at American Bullshit from the outside; it's been rotting since Reagan. — Benkei

Since November 22, 1963.

That hysterical rhetoric is childish. Nobody overthrew the government. — fishfry

I said attempt. And no, it's not hysterical. But nice try at downplaying. Does it make you sleep better?

Again, only dumb Americans don't take J6 seriously. Everybody outside saw it for what it was. A bunch of thugs trying to keep their God Emperor Trump on the throne as they have admitted to and informants in the Boogaloo, Proud Boys and other militant groups, that were there, reported on. But yeah, keep your head in the same and pretend this was the same as a riot and watch it happen again next time Trump loses.

I said attempt. And no, it's not hysterical. But nice try at downplaying. Does it make you sleep better? — Benkei

Hysterical. Childish.

Again, only dumb Americans don't take J6 seriously. Everybody outside saw it for what it was. A bunch of thugs trying to keep their God Emperor Trump on the throne as they have admitted to and informants in the Boogaloo, Proud Boys and other militant groups, that were there, reported on. But yeah, keep your head in the same and pretend this was the same as a riot and watch it happen again next time Trump loses. — Benkei

I expect the left to riot and rampage if Trump wins. It's the left who are the danger to democracy these days. I'll concede your next string of silly leftist talking points, which I did not come here to debate. I don't have to defend Trump. Just defending the man's Constitutional rights is enough to trigger the checkbox leftists. It's pathetic to watch. Pathetic and disheartening.

I came here to ask if people would cut down the law to get at the Devil, in response to the New York trial.

And what is the response? J6 J6 J6. Why? Because you have no response to the question. You'll ignore a summer of deadly rioting, 20 killed, billions in damages, over a violent career criminal who died of a fentanyl overdose. But the guy in the war paint, fur, and horns? That sends you into a paroxysm of rage.

You are easily played.

a leftist talking point would be: capitalism is bad and should be replaced with socialism. Pointing out facts isn't. You're so dumb you think everything is part of the culture war. What riot happened on his inauguration? None. Your expectations are ahistoric and unfounded.

You're so dumb — Benkei

Have a nice evening. Your inability to engage in intelligent conversation is apparent to all.

I see you added things after I posted. Normally you indicate that by adding "edit" to be clear and fair to your interlocutors. Prosecuting criminals isn't cutting down the law. And yes, you're dumb if you ignore facts that stand in the way of your idiotic both sideism.

It is established many J6 protesters weren't rioters but insurrectionists and were there to keep Trump in power. That's not a riot. Proud Boys wanted to murder the vice president. Boogaloo wanted to do as much damage to the government as possible. The Oath Keepers are anti- government, some convicted to 18 years for sedition. And you're here pretending prosecutors, judges and juries did so for shits and giggles.

Your attempt to equate them is the real hypocrisy here and is dumb as fuck. It doesn't require an intelligent discussion because your premises are so far removed from reality there's no discussion to be had until you acknowledge some basic facts first.

dumb as fuck — Benkei

Just can't help yourself. Done with you

Didn't they throw certain GOP members off the committee or deny them membership, flouting longstanding procedures? I also hear they destroyed all their records. — fishfry

No they did not deny GOP participation. The original proposal for a National Commission to Investigate the January 6 Attack on the United States Capitol Complex, known colloquially as the January 6 commission, was an unsuccessful effort to create a bi-partisan commission that would have investigated the January 6 United States Capitol attack. On February 15, 2021, Speaker of the United States House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi announced that she planned to create a "9/11-type commission". The details were initially negotiated by Republican John Katko, and would have consisted of an equal number of Democrats and Republicans. A bill forming the commission passed the House of Representatives on May 19 with all Democrats and 35 Republicans voting in support of it. However, it was blocked by Senate Republicans on May 28, with 54 Senators voting in favor and 35 voting against, failing to clear the 60 votes needed to break a filibuster. After the bill establishing the commission failed, the House of Representatives created the United States House Select Committee on the January 6 Attack.

There was then negotiation to establish another form of bi-partisan inquiry but it was torpedoed by Kevin McCarthy and other Republicans, some of whom denied that the assault was an attempted insurrection at all. McCarthy meanwhile insisted on broadening the scope to include an inquiry into Black Lives Matter protests. Stymied in the Senate, Pelosi declared that the House would conduct the enquiry. The only two House Republicans to vote to establish the Committee were also the only two Republicans to serve on it: Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger.

As far as the ‘destruction of records’ is concerned, it’s another Trump/MAGA lie.

In any case Fishfry I respect your intelligence and have learned things from you about philosophy of math. This is what makes it disappointing - to see intelligent people rationalizing the despicable
actions of Trump and his flunkeys. It’s depressing.

to see intelligent people rationalizing the despicable
actions of Trump and his flunkeys. It’s depressing. — Wayfarer

I see intelligent people on the left, where I used to be, rationalizing lawfare and the politicized application of justice, from Russiagate to the present moment. I'm profoundly depressed about it. You gloated about Bannon but ignored my question about Holder. And now Garland is doing the same, refusing to honor a Congressional subpoena.

I came to the Trump thread to speak for Trump's Constitutional rights; and not for the man himself. I regret getting drawn into irrelevancies. He is not on trial for J6 and I did not post abou J6. And for what it's worth, I deny it was an "insurrection." That's a childish and false charge, especially in view of the summer of leftist riots that preceded it.

"To my friends, everything; to my enemies, the law."

The subpoena to Garland was pure theatre and retribution, no basis in law or fact. We can expect many more frivolous and baseless lawsuits from Trump’s minions in Congress none with any basis in law or fact, but solely driven by spite and the desire to settle scores.

Ashli Babbitt was shot by law enforcement trying to force entry into a restricted area. If she hadn’t have been taking those actions, she wouldn’t have been shot.

I truly have no interest in debating J6. It was a protest that got out of hand. — fishfry

Not true. There were intruders holding signs saying that the Vice President should be hung and expressing the intent to find and murder the speaker of the house. They desecrated the House and destroyed private and government property and confidential records.

The difference with Holder is that Eric Holder was asked to testify and provide documents for a period of time in which he actually was part of the executive branch. In fact he did provide many documents and he claimed executive privilege for others. The court agreed but also required Holder to turn over non-privileged documents.

Steve Bannon was being requested to testify and provide document for a period of time in which he was not part of the executive branch. Bannon turned over nothing and refused to testify. It is fundamentally different than Eric Holder’s case.

[Trump] is not on trial for J6 — fishfry

That trial is pending.

Take it from somebody looking at American Bullshit from the outside; it's been rotting since [Nixon]. — Benkei

:victory: :mask: From the inside too the reek of imperial rot has been unbearable except to the last few of generations of "my fellow American" shiteaters.

Guess who judged Bannon’s case? Juan Merchan, whose daughter takes in millions working for the Biden campaign and wet noodles like pencil-neck Adam Schiff. He also happened to judge the Trump Org. case. How is this possible? Well, we all know…

What riot happened on his inauguration? None.

“ Federal prosecutors on Friday moved to drop charges against the last 39 people accused of participating in a violent protest on the day of President Donald Trump's inauguration.

The motion to dismiss charges by the U.S. attorney's office seemingly ends an 18-month saga that started with the Justice Department attempting to convict more than 190 people.”

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna889531

I remember this because everyone was mocking Trump for his crowd size without saying anything about the rioters blocking the entrances.

Handful of unarmed clowns in costumes. Guess you missed the leftists interrupting Kavanaugh hearing. — fishfry

:rofl:

Totally unbiased analysis. Very convincing.

Since November 22, 1963. — fishfry

Oh Christ. Yeah, the day one of the worst presidents in history gets shot — all downhill from there. Please.

You'll ignore a summer of deadly rioting — fishfry

Hysterical. Childish.

This is what makes it disappointing - to see intelligent people rationalizing the despicable
actions of Trump and his flunkeys. It’s depressing. — Wayfarer

This and climate change. Those two issues are so easy and so obvious that a child can understand them, and yet individuals who would otherwise fool you into believing they’re sharp thinkers simply cannot grasp them.

To me, both are a kind of litmus test. I used to think it was belief in God (“how can anyone rational really belief this?”), but that’s changed. Actually it’s rather similar, since the dogma and brainwashing of Christianity has largely shifted to politics, and so to education, science, medicine, etc. A lot of overlap. But still, I’m much more forgiving of religious beliefs these days — seem almost quaint and harmless compared to the Trump cult, anti-vaxxers, climate deniers, book banners, etc.

It is indeed depressing, but shows how easy it is to get lost and let irrationality take over. Happens to the best of us.

In Fishfry’s defense, he’s certainly far from the worst of it — just skewed on where the emphasis gets placed and a lot of false equivalence — and there’s a lot of truth in it, to the both-sides stuff. Always has been. Because there really IS a lot to criticize in either party, and the hypocrisy that gets pointed out IS real.

For example, it’s true that there was some violence and destruction of property in the 2020 protests, yes. It’s true that the people who generally agreed with the values downplayed a lot of it, despite condemning it. It’s true that the conservative media ran NOTHING BUT these negative stories, to the point where you might have been convinced entire cities were being burned down and the world was falling into anarchy and being consumed by fire.

But most of us are already beyond that analysis. Getting stuck in the endless hypocrisy accusations is boring and tiresome and regressive, and usually serves as nothing more than a cover for one’s thinly-veiled partisanship. If you want to pretend you’re independent but deep down feel that one side is a bigger threat, then that will eventually come out. Look where the emphasis gets placed. I do this too. But I don’t hide it under the cover of “both sides.” The Republicans and Trump are more dangerous in my view— period. So I vote against them because I don’t want them in power. Why? Because it makes it that much harder to make any progress. But that’s not an endorsement on Biden or the Democrats, whom I loathe. But they’re NOT the same.

Eh…rambling over. Bottom line: stop overthinking things. Stop the gaslighting. Forget the culture war nonsense. And for God’s sake, enough with the fucking both-sides Nickelodeon analysis.

I stand corrected. Thanks.

:smirk:

The subpoena to Garland was pure theatre and retribution — Wayfarer

Just grabbing this quote for tagging purposes, perhaps I'll get to the particulars later. I want to be more general today.

Your posts have been on my mind. I have a desire to explain myself, and explain Trump, to liberals who hate him. I'm a fallen liberal. I voted for Carter, for the useless Mondale and Dukakis. For Kerry, who said he'd "Fight the war, but better," at a time when the country longed for someone to shut down that illegal and immoral war. A war supported by Hillary and all the other prominent Dems at the time. That was just one of many data points along the way to my growing disaffection with and now my total defection from the Democratic party.

I voted for every Democrat in every election in my lifetime, until I voted for Trump. Even then it was more of a protest vote. I live in California, which goes Democrat no matter what. I often have the luxury of a meaningless protest vote. At the time I asked myself what I'd do if I lived in a swing state. Probably vote for Hillary. Maybe not. It was close.

But after the behavior and actions of the Democrats since 2016, I and many other doubtful and trepidatious Trump voters of 2016 have had our positions hardened. It's not that I don't see Trump's many faults. But the Democrats have gone off the deep end. Some call it TDS. Looking the other way on too many bad ideas and too much outright evil because they hate the Orange Man. The monster that, ironically, they created themselves. Just look at his post-conviction polls. The more corrupt lawfare, the more Americans peel away from the Democrats. If you'd ignored him you'd be beating DeSantis by now.

Anyway I realize that I can't write my grand unified theory of Trump and how it relates to my own political development, all in one post. There's too much.

Instead I'll just try to write a little at a time, inspired that someone like as yourself has curiosity about what I have to say. I think this is the first time that's ever happened. Usually it's just abuse. "Let me explain what people see in Trump." "You Trumpers all suck." I'm sure you've seen the pattern. After a while, you come to see the nature of Trump's opposition, and you have to support the guy because there is no alternative.

So when you wrote about "the despicable actions of Trump and his flunkeys," yet you still want to hear what I have to say, then that's one more listener than I had yesterday. I thank you for that.

Before going on with generalities, I want to push back on the word despicable.

The Biden administration is running the world's largest child trafficking operation at the southern border. They've lost track of 1 out of ever 4 children. "Separating families" is bad, the lefties screech. Instead, they just let everyone in. "Oh, this is your child? Come on in." The reason you separate families is not to be cruel. It's to weed out the traffickers. Liberals who don't know the first thing about the southern border have no clue. The cartels are thriving. I say that's despicable.

If you say that's just a right wing talking point, you are wrong. I know border issues. Liberals are in denial about the horrific human rights abuses Biden is enabling. Shame on the MSM that let you stay asleep, and on the Democrats and liberals who prefer not to know.

Please don't think that only one politician or party in the US is despicable.

Ok end of that rant.

Something bad happened to the left after 2016. They call it TDS. I believe it. I see the left doing very foolish and dangerous things because they hate Trump so much. The open borders, the decriminalization of crime, and the bumbling and potentially fatal foreign policy.

Trump had four years of peace and was the only president in my lifetime not to start a new war. You think that was an accident? It's something many Americans long for. It was no accident.

Another funny thing. The Trump monster is of the Dems' own making. A year ago we were all tired of Trump. I was tired of Trump, and I'm a good barometer for that. I thought DeSantis would be the nominee. Then they raided Mar-a-Lago, and the next day DeSantis was forced to come out in Trump's defense, then he faded in the polls, and Trump rocketed on up. Dems, YOU did this. We all thought Trump was done. You breathed life into him through your corrupt lawfare and political attacks.

Do you not see the irony? Do you not look at the polls? If you'd left Trump alone, DeSantis or dog killer Noem would be the GOP nominee and they'd both lose. By the way I hate the Republicans even more than the Democrats, if you're wondering. The Republicans are so effing useless. I remember when they spent six years railing against Obamacare. Then they woke up in 2017 and found themselves in possession of the Presidency, the Senate, and the House. It immediately became obvious that they hadn't spent five minutes in all those years thinking about health care policy. In the end they failed to overturn it.

Hopeless. The gang that can't shoot straight.

The Dems have become the evil party, and the GOP the useless party. What's an independent-minded free thinker like me to do? It's Trump, brother. He's all there is. There isn't another. And he's up against the entire establishment. It's something to behold. People are starting to be drawn to his epic struggle.

I tell you, the Dems have created the very monster they fear.

Bottom line: I am one of the ten million or so Americans who voted for Obama and then voted for Trump. Reluctantly at first. And then, watching the Dems and liberals after 2016, now enthusiastically. Not because I don't see Trump's many faults. Not even because I like him. Many of Trump's supporters don't like him much. But right now, he is the only game in town. I wish it were not so. It's where the Dems have brought us.

And really, @Wayfarer, would you like to pretend to sell me on the virtues of that desiccated husk of the stupid and corrupt career politician they call Biden? Did you see him yesterday at Normandy?

Is that what you're selling me? Sorry, I've seen the goods.

Biden's staff evidently studied Reagan's 1984 speech, as reported by Politico and the NYT; and even plagiarized parts of it, as reported by some scurrilous right wingers who watched both speeches side by side. I haven't personally verified that last bit. Fitting for known plagiarist Biden. @Benkei you did cast a disparaging eye on Reagan, did you not? Ironic that he was the go-to inspiration for your guy yesterday. And he failed miserably of course. I suppose I should ask you the same question: You sellin' me four more years of that?

Since 2016 very few if any Democrats have troubled to ask themselves the question, who voted for Democrats all their lives, then voted for Trump?

They didn't ask that. Instead Hillary commissioned the fake Steele dossier, misreported the expense (ahem) and started the past eight years of vicious political lawfare against the Great Orange Monster.

And only made him stronger in the process.

I am a lifelong liberal and registered Democrat. And liberals and Democrats, you terrify me.

Yeah, the day one of the worst presidents in history gets shot — Mikie

Wow. I'm speechless. Dare I ask why you say that? But nevermind. I don't necessarily need to have this conversation.

You'll ignore a summer of deadly rioting
— fishfry

Hysterical. Childish. — Mikie

Really? "However, arson, vandalism, and looting that occurred between May 26 and June 8 caused approximately $1–2 billion in insured damages nationally, the highest recorded damage from civil disorder in U.S. history, and surpassing the record set during the 1992 Los Angeles riots." -- Wiki

And: "By the end of June 2020, at least 14,000 people had been arrested. By June 2020, more than 19 people had died in relation to the unrest." -- Wiki

But at least it wasn't the guy in horns wandering aimlessly around the capitol. That was an insurrection.

Dare I ask why you say that? — fishfry

But nevermind. I don't necessarily need to have this conversation. — fishfry

Fine. Chomsky says it better than me, though (at 1:36):




Also recommend “Rethinking Camelot.”