The idea of partaking in performance is important and that may be the appeal of so many shows, including live music. A lot of this may be becoming lost as people become immersed in digital media, in isolation as opposed to community participation.

With this in relation to trajedy, what may occur is that people participate in the experience of trajedy as if they are living and growing through it. In that way, one becomes the hero of trajedy. That is not to dismiss the individual who is alone reading, listening or looking at art, but some of the underlying process of transformation may be a little different than when it is done with the connectiveness in performance participation.

The dramas of news affect us as spectators but also impact on us so much. It as if the news tells us 'what is next' in many respects. In the time of the pandemic it was a case of watching news to see what was permitted with the changing guidelines. It was also the unveiling of tragedies of deaths throughout the world, with everyone being at risk potentially and responsible for action in not spreading the virus.

Even now, it is possible that there is a moral panic about contamination, even in conjunction with bedbugs rising. The bugs may be arising due to poor housing conditions and overcrowding, with many buying secondhand furniture. Nevertheless, there is still a certain amount of stigma attached to the problem and moral panic, with people being urged to have chemical sprays which are more probably more harmful than the bugs themselves. Sorry for going off in a rant about bed bugs and it is because a new infestation of them has occurred in the last few day in the shared house where I am living. They are unpleasant but the group of us have already had many chemical sprays and it is as if landlords can impose all kinds of regimes in accommodation to protect their property. Only 2 weeks ago I was rather shocked to find that CCTV cameras had been installed in the communal kitchen and I am not sure why. It feels rather Orwellian.

Being based in Britain it does feel like a question of what happens next with the change of government. There is so much poverty, concerns about the benefit system, healthcare and housing and uncertainty. The uncertainty of daily life and the future is throughout the world, especially with climate change. Also, with all the images of suffering in the news there is a danger of people becoming desensitised to it as if suffering is the new 'normal'.

The experience of personal dramas occurs within the context of this wider narrative. The outer dramas also interact with the inner life. Personally, I find that too much drama in real life gets in the way of creative activities, like creative writing and stories It can be as if the outer dramas consume too much inner energy. Of course, the challenge may be to be creative in channelling the difficulties of life into forms of art, but it not an easy task at all.

Saying that, a certain amount of humour may help in balancing the unpleasant aspects of life. In many respects, life may be a tragicomedy.

The idea of 'restful, contemplative art' is so different from what is considered as entertainment; which may be more about distraction. So much of consumer orientated materialist art as entertainment may be about a shallow form of catharsis, as switching off from real life as opposed to deeper consideration and contemplation of it. This may be an obstacle for those who want to make art and see art as inherent in everything. It probably means that the challenge for those who engage in arts is to enable an audience to participate in the art of seeing itself.

The idea of 'restful, contemplative art' is so different from what is considered as entertainment; which may be more about distraction. — Jack Cummins

That has always been the function of public entertainment. When we discuss Greek tragedy or epic poetry, we sometimes forget that it was big business in its day, made to attract the same crowds that flocked to wrestling matches and chariot races. Maybe a lot of Greek theater was schlock, just like modern movies - but the schlock falls out of memory; only the cream survives.

We need the more elevated forms of art once in a while, when we take the time to walk through an art gallery or read a poem or attend a classical concert.
But most people, most of the time, don't want to reflect and contemplate; we just need distractions. Mass entertainment provides a good laugh or cry or rant to blow off emotional steam.
The problem today is that there is simply too much of it. You don't have to seek out the distraction most suited to your mood; distractions pursue and harass you everywhere; jarring graphic images and bad music are inescapable.

It is very likely true that people don't want 'deep' entertainment all of the time. Generally, I want depth in general. For example, I do care what lyrics in music I listen to but I have moments when I listen to lighter 'pop' and alternative music. Generally, I am more needy of 'deep entertainment' when low in mood or having a lot of difficulty in life. It is a little like the House of Love's song 'The Beatles and The Stones', which says, 'The Beatles and the Stones put the V in Vietnam, made it good to be alone..'

The creative arts and entertainment have so many different purposes. It is true that we are oversaturated by them, which may lead to them being not as significant as they could be for many. They blur into the background of the stimuli of life experiences.

They blur into the background of the stimuli of life experiences. — Jack Cummins

A larger problem for young people is that life experience blurs into, is confused with and sometimes subsumed by virtual, electronic life. It's not a problem for old people like me: I don't have a cell-phone or any device with earbuds, don't carry a tablet. My computer is here, stays here; I can stand up and leave it. The tv, with its dedicated computer, is over there, with a blank screen until I choose something to watch. There is never music in this house, unless we tune in to a concert or put a cd in the player. Ws live and work in this house; don't have to go anywhere except appointments and grocery shopping. But wherever I do go, there is unchosen, unwanted, poor quality background noise, and I see people immersed in their tiny electronic worlds.

In the time of the pandemic it was a case of watching news to see what was permitted with the changing guidelines. It was also the unveiling of tragedies of deaths throughout the world, with everyone being at risk potentially and responsible for action in not spreading the virus.

Even now, it is possible that there is a moral panic about contamination, even in conjunction with bedbugs rising. — Jack Cummins

My experience ( in Scotland) of the daily updates from political and medical 'expertise', was overall good. The information was valuable and presented calmly. As someone 'vulnerable', I felt protected and served well. I didn't follow all guide-lines slavishly - but kept to the common-sense ones. The shocking aspect was when mask-wearing was politicised and people vilified and called traitor. Especially in America. The hatred coming over the screen was palpable.

The concept of 'moral panic' - I've never really appreciated. I learned it in terms of sociology and how young deviants upset the status quo. Media had a field day with 'Mods and rockers'.
More here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

I'm not sure where the 'moral' aspects comes into any fear of contamination or bedbugs...certainly, there are no signs of wide-spread panic around here...I agree there can be stigma with associations of 'dirt'.
Your experience in London - a shocker and sounds like a wild story altogether! I don't know how you are still alive, given that chemicals don't just poison bedbugs.

CCTV cameras - Wow! You have the basis of a brilliant Short Story. Especially, if you have nightmares!
How very pleasing...

I think the tragedy of humans is when we exaggerate the feelings of anxiety>>Fear of the other fuelled. As in Southport - Without knowing full facts, hard right mobs used the killings of 3 children as an excuse for violence and riots when what was needed was peace and calm, respect for those affected. But no...
There is no sense. But apparently, some rare elements are open to discussion with Muslim leaders.
We will see...

Personally, I find that too much drama in real life gets in the way of creative activities, like creative writing and stories It can be as if the outer dramas consume too much inner energy. Of course, the challenge may be to be creative in channelling the difficulties of life into forms of art, but it not an easy task at all. — Jack Cummins

Thanks for the honesty. Clearly, some find it easier than others. Some have a persistent inner drive. Writing is like thinking/breathing. Something done daily. A sense of the absurd and humour can help with perspective.
Life is tragi-comedy. A mix of tough and funny. We get on with it.
Don't let the bed-buggers get you down :wink: Use your superpowers as a writer, yay :strong:

A sense of the absurd and humour can help with perspective. Life is tragi-comedy. A mix of tough and funny. We get on with it — Amity

:death: :flower:

But most people, most of the time, don't want to reflect and contemplate; we just need distractions. Mass entertainment provides a good laugh or cry or rant to blow off emotional steam. The problem today is that there is simply too much of it. You don't have to seek out the distraction most suited to your mood; distractions pursue and harass you everywhere; jarring graphic images and BAD MUSIC are inescapable. — Vera Mont

:100: :zip:

A larger problem for young people is that life experience blurs into, is confused with and sometimes subsumed by virtual, electronic life. It's not a problem for old people like me... — Vera Mont

:up: :up:

@Jack Cummins Besides George Steiner's Antigones I recommended in my first post, his earlier book The Death of Tragedy (1961) analyzes how modernity itself and 'mass culture' – the root of today's ubiquitious p0m0 vidiocracy (vidiocy) that Vera reflects on – marginalizes or 'deadens' the cathartic function of tragedy as a communal artform that has been mostly 'repackaged' as a consumer product for increasingly atomized individuals. IMHO "the pleasure of tragedy" is, for most folks today, just one more distraction among countless many others, and only a "problem" of growing irrelevance in a self-anaestheticizing (numbing, blurring, manic multitasking) marketplace.

Rivas makes good points. Hubris is an important part of the action. There is the relief of not experiencing the bad luck as pointed out by Moliere quoting Lucretius upthread.

But there are elements that are meant to leave the audience with some discomfort. The theme of blindness and fear of the future started when baby Oedipus is left to die on a hillside. Prophecy is supposed to pierce the invisibility of fate but becomes an instrument of fate in some points of crisis.

Macbeth demonstrates that quality in a direct way. Oedipus, however, is entangled in decisions of his parents. The terrain becomes murkier. I leave the play less certain of where I live. Maybe I am the one who is blind.

Would you consider Deadwood as an example of a modern tragedy?

↪180 Proof Would you consider Deadwood as an example of a modern tragedy? — Tom Storm

No, imo, it's more of an absurdist historical drama (if that's not too oxmoronic). Instead I consider the first season of True Detective to be "a modern tragedy".

:up:

There is the relief of not experiencing the bad luck as pointed out by Moliere quoting Lucretius upthread. — Paine

Yes. I seem to have skimmed over @Moliere's post and others. I'll return.

But there are elements that are meant to leave the audience with some discomfort. The theme of blindness and fear of the future started when baby Oedipus is left to die on a hillside. — Paine

Yes, I think any 'tragedy' will bring home elements of natural fears. Of abandonment. Death. Loss of vision. Losing control. Being vulnerable to those in positions of power.

Prophecy is supposed to pierce the invisibility of fate but becomes an instrument of fate in some points of crisis. — Paine

Foresight can be a curse. The self-fulfilling prophecy.

A self-fulfilling prophecy can have either negative or positive outcomes. Merely applying a label to someone or something can affect the perception of the person/thing and create a self-fulfilling prophecy. Interpersonal communication plays a significant role in establishing these phenomena as well as impacting the labeling process [...]

Philosopher Karl Popper called the self-fulfilling prophecy the Oedipus effect:
One of the ideas I had discussed in The Poverty of Historicism was the influence of a prediction upon the event predicted. I had called this the "Oedipus effect", because the oracle played a most important role in the sequence of events which led to the fulfilment of its prophecy. [...] For a time I thought that the existence of the Oedipus effect distinguished the social from the natural sciences. But in biology, too—even in molecular biology—expectations often play a role in bringing about what has been expected. — Self-fulfilling prophecy - wiki

Interesting to consider the role and potential power of the human mind to make things happen simply by believing. Think of how the effects of labelling someone (black, Indian, white or orange) or even insulting political opponents as 'weird' might turn the tide from tragedy to pleasure or v.v. The persuasive, hypnotic power of a 'God'...to be revered, then toppled. So, the cycle goes...

I leave the play less certain of where I live. Maybe I am the one who is blind. — Paine

Exploring, seeking and fumblin' in the dark...that's fine. When vision is lost, other senses come into play.
Listening, touching, licking...tasting all the losses and gains. All in the story bag...

But I also want to quote Artaud, whose theory of theatre gives a different picture to the pleasure of tragedy: [...]

Artaud is a more poetic writer and so subject to interpretation, but what I've always taken him to mean is that the function of tragedy is to fulfill our anti-social desires through the magic of theatre: the savage desire to kill your enemy can be not just seen from a distince, but felt in the interior -- so it gives an opposite reason for the pleasure of tragedy. Rather than because we are distant from it we come to experience a part of ourselves that we normally couldn't. — Moliere

Thanks for the introduction to Artaud and his thoughts. This experiencing of the dark side of our nature and the desire to kill - we don't sometimes care to admit. Of course, some revel in it. If we even become aware of it, then guilt can arise and perhaps worse.

I'm thinking of how people can easily become addicted to watching e.g. porn. A natural curiosity and desire leading to internet searches - the dark web - caught up in it even as the person hits Delete! Delete! Desensitisation creeping in so that the tragedy begins. continues. The tragedy of child victims procured and tortured, viewed and shared. The tragedy of the families concerned who...I'll stop there.
What value in any pleasure?

I found Artaud again. Listed in Modern Tragedy in Literature - Theory, Theorists, Works and Arguments: https://english-studies.net/modern-tragedy-in-literature/

↪180 Proof Would you consider Deadwood as an example of a modern tragedy?
— Tom Storm
No, imo, it's more of an absurdist historical drama (if that's not too oxmoronic). Instead I consider the first season of True Detective to be "a modern tragedy". — 180 Proof

Curious as to the question and response. Tom, what made you ask? 180, what is the difference between a modern tragedy and an absurdist historical drama, whatever the hell that is ?
What makes True Detective, S1 a 'modern tragedy'?

180, what is the difference between a modern tragedy and an absurdist historical drama, whatever the hell that is ? What makes True Detective, S1 a 'modern tragedy'? — Amity

I interpret True Detective (s1) as a "modern tragedy" because the story, while very atmospheric could take place anywhere , is mostly about 'professional' (rather than royal / noble) protagonists who are inescapably driven by death (re: fear, guilt / ghosts, violence, despair) to 'the edge of status quo destroying' madness (i.e. an analogue for or symbol of the supernatural / demonic / revelation).

On the other hand, Deadwood I interpret as an "absurdist historical drama" because the story is, it seems to me, about the 'anarchic growth' (not planned development) of a specific place (the town "Deadwood in the "Dakota territories") at a specific historic moment (ca 1870s, gold rush era) inhabited or visited by many different types of protagonists who in different ways are desperately seeking to make their lives meaningful (again?) by putting down roots (i.e. finding their 'fortunes') there or elsewhere and violently leaving behind their rootless – meaningless – pasts.

Two of my all-time favorite television shows. I need to watch both again soon.

Curious as to the question and response. Tom, what made you ask? — Amity

I was wondering what tragedy looked like outside of the classical canon. Despite receiving a somewhat classical education (Shakespeare/Marlowe/Sophocles/Euripedes) I have no great love of the tradition.

I was wondering what tragedy looked like outside of the classical canon — Tom Storm

OK. So, why did Deadwood, in particular, come to mind as a possibility? I haven't watched it. So haven't a clue! If popular, I doubt most of its audience would reflect on it as a tragedy related to catharsis? It would be a simple, distracting pleasure...both, more?

Thanks for sharing your interpretations. Interesting descriptions of both...but I don't know if I fully understand...or even need to...dig deep down for that matter. The time for that has passed...

Two of my all-time favorite television shows. I need to watch both again soon. — 180 Proof

Why? Do you have a thesis to write? :wink:

Despite receiving a somewhat classical education (Shakespeare/Marlowe/Sophocles/Euripedes) I have no great love of the tradition. — Tom Storm

Perhaps the educators didn't inspire - or just not to your taste. The high ancients and language difficult to relate to. At least you were given a taste or base-line of narrative/history/literature from which to compare and contrast. To follow your preferred medium or entertainment...

"Chacun à son goût" - as some like to say.

I had to take Shakespeare in high school, a play of appropriate difficulty to each year, from Julius Caesar to King Lear. I didn't care for Lear - over-the-top melodrama, besides, the silly wanker was asking for it - but loved Macbeth, very possibly because I had an English teacher that year who knew how to preform Shakespeare.

Those dramas were mass entertainment in their time. The audience had a great deal more to fear in terms of personal misfortune than we do today. They had a greater need to externalize and distance themselves from the actual threat of death, maiming, imprisonment and madness. So these characters on the stage would bear the ill fortune and violence that the audience feared and, once every fortnight or so, carry them off into the night like the scapegoat.

Our violent melodramas are impersonal. We don't really expect a serial killer to abduct us or a mad terrorist to hijack the bus we're on - these are remote possibilities. But they take our minds off the petty, far more plausible anxieties that haunt us all the time. We are distracted from little, niggling real fears and guilts by big imaginary evil deeds and life-and-death struggles. But an evening once or twice a month is insufficient distraction; it has to be repeated frequently, in constantly increasing intensity, to hold our attention. Even so, it doesn't; we're easily distracted from our distractions.

And indeed researchers have found evidence that over the past couple of decades, people's attention spans have shrunk considerably.

This is true of everything pleasurable. The taste of sweets is pleasant; so we have sugar in everything, develop a higher tolerance and need salt to enhance it, then more sugar. It's no longer a craving; it's an addiction, which can never be satisfied.

The moral aspect of bed bugs is connected to assumptions about dirt. In a similar way, I understand moral panic as being involved in the example of Aids being about assumptions about gay sexuality. The moral aspect may involve moral judgements and generalised assumptions.

The advice about Covid-19 was helpful at times, although some of the contradictions and lack of clarity seemed to show that the leaders were so uncertain themselves.

As as writing about difficult experiences is concerned, there is philosophy of understanding it, therapeutic writing about it, as well as fiction and other creative writing about is as an art form. These are separate angles but may be blended effectively. There is fiction which explores philosophy ideas as well as creative fiction. The division between therapeutic and creative writing is a different approach but it is possible to do both.

Personally, I would love to write more fiction. Previous to finding this forum in lockdown, I used to go to writing groups and I have started doing so again. Often, I end up writing real life experiences and people often seem surprised, asking, 'Did that really happen?' I know that a lot of real authors blend personal experiences and fictive elements together. Such fiction probably is also a way of reframing difficult and tragic life events in a meaningful way.

I have discovered that Nuttall does draw refer to George Steiner's ideas, saying that Steiner suggested that the 'starkest suffering was 'hallowed" in trajedy'. Nuttall also quotes CS Lewis:
'Can we wholly avoid the suspicion that trajedy as Mr Steiner conceives it is our final attempt to see the world as it is not.'
In addition, Nuttall argues that tragedy may involve 'subliminal pain through the low magic of a formal usurpation, glorifying the inglorious.'

Trajedy may involve building pictures of good and evil. One interesting aspect of this which Nuttall points to is the question as to whether a tragedy is the whole picture or about happy or unhappy endings to stories.

Nuttall does discuss Shakespeare, mainly focusing on 'King Lear', which was the Shakespeare play which I studied in most depth in English literature. Nuttall says,
'In 'King Lear' the game of death is played very hard_ even to the point of making us aware that all the stately signals of formality are frail, that the rules of language and hypothesis, which make it, still, a game and not death itself, are only temporary defenses...I have stressed the word "nothing" and the destruction of authoritative sequences. I do not believe that the play is morally nihilist. The words "good" and "evil" mean not less but more to one who has just watched King Lear'.

Certainly, I can remember that studying King Lear' at school opened up my philosophical imagination so much, especially in thinking about suffering and the nature of good and evil. Shakespeare's trajedies(and comedies) have probably had such a cultural influence in thinking, making him(or Francis Bacon or whoever wrote the plays) a significant philosopher as well as playwright.

Shakespeare's trajedies(and comedies) have probably had such a cultural influence in thinking, making him(or Francis Bacon or whoever wrote the plays) a significant philosopher as well as playwright. — Jack Cummins

Don't forget psychologist. As were the Greek playwrights.

I am sure that Shakespeare( or whoever he was) was a great psychologist, as were the Greek playwrights. Of course, this was before philosophy and psychology became so divergent fields during the twentieth century. It is likely that they still unite in fiction and drama in spite of the academic division.

OK. So, why did Deadwood, in particular, come to mind as a possibility? — Amity

Because with great subtlety and majestic darkness it explores fate, human suffering, moral dilemmas, loss and characters with fatal flaws.

Perhaps the educators didn't inspire - or just not to your taste. — Amity

Personal taste, I'd say. I've had decades years of attending the theatre and reading which hasn't changed my perspective.

ugh! wallotext - edit

Certainly they do. But the playwrights were there first, before psychiatry was invented and before the father confessor became a spiritual advisor or pastor. I think the early Greek playwrights leaned heavily on their contemporary philosophers, who were still deeply involved with human nature, social relations and ethics. They gave psychology its vocabulary, its reference-points and a good deal of its dream imagery.

Then philosopher kind of wandered into theological territory. That was okay for the Greeks to do, since their gods were characters in everyday life, but the Renaissance to Industrial Revolution Europeans could not, because their one big God had been moved far up and out of machina range. I think the 20th+ century ones are coming back into human range... it's the physicists that have gone off to Neverland. You can only trust poets and fiction writers to stay close to the beating heart.

King Lear is not a voice for moral nihilism because it is recognized that through her death, Cordelia was the faithful one through her refusal to approve Lear's proposal. That is certainly the groundwork of many a tale. All of Jane Austen can be viewed through this telescope.

I enter your discussion as a curmudgeon who resists the generality of Aristotle's accounts. The differences between King Lear and Macbeth involve different kinds of ignorance. They follow a similar pattern of revelation but do not concern just one problem.

The differences between King Lear and Macbeth involve different kinds of ignorance. — Paine

Also a different kind of arrogance and a different kind of divine retribution.
There is a long tradition in European literature of fathers demanding to know which daughter (never sons) loved them best. Salt figures in most of them. So does a version of Cinderella. That's almost certainly the germ of S's idea. However, Lear's older daughters are exceptionally treacherous, which is missing from the folk takes, and the father's belated realization is usually at a happy resolution, not a mass death scene. Shakespeare went overboard on that one: you don't get a clear message, since everyone seems to be insane.

Macbeth is far more straightforward and plausible. He was due for a royal honour and would have settled for a slow rise at court, but his wife's ambition outstripped his. Pricked in the ego, he goes ahead and commits the assassination. He spends the rest of the play regretting it and trying to cover it up. The spooky bits - ghosts and witches and ambiguous prophecy - are added for crowd appeal (a popular, entertaining way to introduce the moral - I bet they ate up the blasted heath! my classmates did, at 18, which was probably the median age of Shakespeare's audience ).

Two of my all-time favorite television shows. I need to watch both again soon.
— 180 Proof
Why? Do you have a thesis to write? — Amity

Intrigued by what is considered 'modern tragedy' and shared descriptions of Deadwood, such as:

...with great subtlety and majestic darkness it explores fate, human suffering, moral dilemmas, loss and characters with fatal flaws. — Tom Storm

I couldn't help but dig more into Deadwood and realise that this TV drama has fascinated many 'deep thinkers' from a variety of fields, including literature and philosophy.

Here's the latest article I've skimmed over:
Chapter 3 of The Invisible Hand in Popular Culture. 25 minute read.
https://paulcantor.io/paul-cantor-works/order-out-of-the-mud

A philosophical analysis of Deadwood with a focus on the concept of the 'state of nature'. The central question: is it possible to have order without law. The abstract dilemma of freedom v law as depicted in Westerns. Hobbes, Locke and Rousseau important figures in American political thinking. It relates their theories, including the background to the creator's (Milch) attraction to and life in Deadwood, its characters...

Some snippets from literary articles:
https://lithub.com/deadwood-tvs-most-literary-show-gets-its-rightful-foul-mouthed-send-off/
Comparisons to Shakespeare:

[...] It’s not hard to imagine Deadwood as the tragedy Shakespeare would have written had he lived long enough to see the American experiment unfold and been hired to write about it for HBO. Some of its soliloquies, especially those Al Swearengen speaks to a decapitated Indian head in a box throughout the series, are as sublimely crafted and as existentially heavy as anything the Bard gave to Hamlet or Lear, Macbeth or Romeo.

But also Milch’s Shakespearean interest in puns and lowbrow humor injects the otherwise dark Deadwood with levity and absurdity. During the film’s first scene where Calamity Jane rides solo to town, she speaks of passing wind and complains of a blister on her left ass cheek. Later, E. B. Farnum does a little I-have-to-pee dance whilst George Hearst goes on and on about the inevitability of progress.
— Literary Hub - Deadwood

Finally, this I enjoyed for its focus on Milch's writing techniques and language:
https://www.hpten.com/all-content/2021/9/30/theme-character-and-language-in-deadwood

Aware of his own compulsions and the solitary stress of writing, Milch wrote by dictation in the presence of others. He would discuss character arcs and plot elements in the writer’s room by committee, and would often change course based on valuable feedback from collaborators, including actors. Lying on the floor in his office, he would dictate script action and dialogue to a typist, often spending hours on single phrases and sentences, retooling them.

This focus on language is one of Deadwood’s great strengths. David Milch explains to Keith Carradine that, because of the idiosyncratic nature of the Old West, language was brute and harsh, but often masked with a Victorian vocabulary due the literary education of some inhabitants. “There was the cohabitation of the primitively obscene with this…ornate presentation,” Milch adds. The unique setting dictated the way of communication between friends and foes, as the chance of violence for a wrong phrase shadowed every interaction. The “thickness” of the language, Carradine notes, intimidated viewers initially. Once you get used to the dialogue, as I too had to do, the language is flourishing and immerses you in the show. — Theme, Character and Language in Deadwood - Half Past Ten

Thank you for a helpful, short and succinct reply. I've a feeling you could have said more...but that was enough to make me look further. :cool: