Should one do it? and if one does it then the next obvious step must be to forgive yourself. But why even blame yourself when you're coming to terms with yourself later on anyway.. — Nimish
Is self blame harmful? Should one do it? and if one does it then the next obvious step must be to forgive yourself. — Nimish
No, it isn't the next obvious step. The true self-blame asks for "what could I have done differently to prevent it?" So, the forgiveness is suspended until the next time when an opportunity arises to prove to yourself that you could be forgiven.Is self blame harmful? Should one do it? and if one does it then the next obvious step must be to forgive yourself. — Nimish
Depends what you did and why. I'm not a big fan of 'forgiveness' as such - it often has a Christian flavour to it. I'm more of a fan of contextualising what has happened and understanding one's own behaviour to be the product of situational factors. This allows for understanding rather than forgiving - whatever that means. Understanding gives you the option of doing 'better' next time. Is there a connection for you between forgiveness and personal responsibility? Assuming responsibility and changing one's behavior in the future can be more beneficial than merely assigning blame, which often amounts to a passive judgment. — Tom Storm
blaming yourself actually leads to personal growth by accepting responsibility for your actions — Nimish
You say, "Sorry, I will pay for the damages." I say, "Don't worry about it."
That is an instance of forgiveness. You did something wrong and thereby incurred a debt, and then the debt was forgiven. That's forgiveness. — Leontiskos
As I say, I am not a big fan of the term forgiveness. In relation to the OP I would suggest that the issue is more likely to be one of needing a new way viewing oneself rather than needing to forgive. If we recognize that we are imperfect beings who sometimes make mistakes and inadequate choices, we can roll with challenges and mistakes more readily and improve our approach. — Tom Storm
You did something wrong and thereby incurred a debt, and then the debt was forgiven. That's forgiveness. — Leontiskos
Your posts make me think you do not understand forgiveness, — Leontiskos
Since [justifiable anger] is literally treated as the moral sensibility of a person, the total absence of [justifiable anger] in an individual could be condemned by others. — Catherine Lutz, Morality, Domination and Understandings of ‘Justifiable Anger’ among the Ifaluk, p. 209
If we recognize that we are imperfect beings who sometimes make mistakes and inadequate choices, we can roll with challenges and mistakes more readily and improve our approach. — Tom Storm
And the modern world can be lived in a guilt-free and openly negotiated fashion. If we live in families or societies that can own up to their mistakes and roll with them, then forgiveness gets easier in both directions.
It becomes the smoothly flowing economy of debts incurred and debts paid. Messages received and new attitudes promised on both sides of the equation. — apokrisis
"I've looked at how I can defeat them, and I know that if I can understand them, I can love them." - Ender Wiggin — AmadeusD
Why should we frame ourselves in this fashion? Is it anything more than a way of thinking that grew out of the Enlightenment and its Romantic reaction? The modern moral economy.
How could we be actually "imperfect in our being", except as some over the top social judgement? Why do we have to be the one that changes to fit the norms rather than thinking strategically about how we can tip the social game-playing in our own favour?
So what I am saying is that you are just uncritically going along with this idea that it really is all on us as individuals to police our behaviour and strive to find that upright citizen apparently lost somewhere in our inner confusions and emotional turmoil.
This is certainly the game that modern society would like you to play. Socially, and nowadays economically. "If you suck at life, you need to pull yourself together and try a hell of a lot harder, sonny boy."
And how can you ever feel forgiven for failing if you are in fact being socially labelled as just innately "a failure"?
Of course, traditional societies can be far more constraining on the self even if everyone realises that they are just following the cultural norms. Putting on the required masks.
And the modern world can be lived in a guilt-free and openly negotiated fashion. If we live in families or societies that can own up to their mistakes and roll with them, then forgiveness gets easier in both directions.
It becomes the smoothly flowing economy of debts incurred and debts paid. Messages received and new attitudes promised on both sides of the equation. — apokrisis
I think "to love" is as good as "forgive" but does something closer to what Tom Storm is getting at. — AmadeusD
I think forgiveness has far more to do with dealing with your reaction to an event, than it has to do with your thoughts on the actor. — AmadeusD
So then what is it about understanding that predisposes one to love? And it is worth asking whether the principle also holds when we are not speaking about persons or even animals. In understanding the ocean am I disposed to love or appreciate it more? The moon? A motorcycle? — Leontiskos
So blaming altogether seems to be a pointless thing. — Nimish
As I say, I am not a big fan of the term forgiveness. In relation to the OP I would suggest that the issue is more likely to be one of needing a new way viewing oneself rather than needing to forgive. If we recognize that we are imperfect beings who sometimes make mistakes and inadequate choices, we can roll with challenges and mistakes more readily and improve our approach.
@Tom Storm
Your posts make me think you do not understand forgiveness, as they are replete with false dichotomies. For example, you here diminish forgiveness and promote the recognition of imperfection. And yet, without the recognition of imperfection forgiveness is utterly impossible. Recognition of imperfection is not an alternative to forgiveness, it is its prerequisite. This is but one example of the odd dichotomies I see — Leontiskos
Oooh, yeah, good distinction.
I think "love" indicates soething to do with an actor, not an object. I don't think one can love something which does not have aspects to love. And personally, I don't 'feel' Love applies to ought but deliberative beings. I don't love lower animals, nor I do i think it's open to me. — AmadeusD
I don’t forgive someone for mistakes they make due to understandable limitations of knowledge. Only a particular sort of imperfection is a prerequisite for forgiveness, and that is blame. — Joshs
Along the same lines, in the Nicomachean Ethics Aristotle says that the belief that someone acted at least partially involuntarily is what makes forgiveness possible. Even the simple admission, "My bad: I regret how that turned out. It wasn't what I wanted," is a variety of involuntariness that can go a long way to predisposing the aggrieved party towards forgiveness. — Leontiskos
If there is a car crash, again one needs to identify the fault; sometimes it might be the brakes, and sometimes it might be the driver. There was one recently in which a child was killed - the fault was in the driver, but it was not alcohol, but epilepsy. The driver was unaware of their epilepsy because they had not been diagnosed. They were found not guilty of causing death by dangerous driving. — unenlightened
If there is a car crash, again one needs to identify the fault; sometimes it might be the brakes, and sometimes it might be the driver. There was one recently in which a child was killed - the fault was in the driver, but it was not alcohol, but epilepsy. The driver was unaware of their epilepsy because they had not been diagnosed. They were found not guilty of causing death by dangerous driving.
— unenlightened
1h — Leontiskos
We learn and grow by doing what Tom Storm described as modifying our ways of interpreting events. Each of us differs in how much emphasis , if any, we place on imperfections that deserve a judgement of blame, and thus provide an opportunity for forgiveness. When it comes to making sense of the imperfections of others, It sounds to me like blame and forgiveness are more useful concepts for you than they are for Tom. — Joshs
Is it that their deliberations become transparent and familiar to us, and this in turn somehow makes it easier for us to love them? — Leontiskos
it may be that this fact has value for overcoming the 'is'-'ought' gap, insofar as we associate understanding with 'is' and love with 'ought' — Leontiskos
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