You have no frickin' clue, have you? — Vera Mont
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Just don't get seriously ill. — LuckyR
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Every single aspect of life involves only one thing really, free will. This free will is the infinitely precarious order/chaos balance. If the universe and all aspects of it were not infinitely balanced on this single point, free will, choice, would not have the strength to move things, to choose. But everything moves and vibrates back and forth along the balance. The order/chaos balance is EVERYTHING.A society without pain, suffering, disease, wars, poverty or even death.
The angle of my question is not aimed at the human obstacles of achieving such a civilisation or whether it’s technologically possible but rather whether it’s philosophically possible.
What would Joy feel like without pain, what would riches mean without poverty or what would health mean without sickness. What would life mean without death?
To live in a society where we were incapable of experiencing such things as unhappiness, sadness, pain would be the same as being colour blind to the complete palette of human emotion of what truly makes us human.
For this reason I don’t think Utopia is possible as life is about opposites ying and yang otherwise it would just be all yang and without ying. All black or all white. But what do you think ? — kindred
In absolute numbers — Tarskian
Then your claim was misleading. — AmadeusD
I don't really know what you're getting at here. — AmadeusD
I disagree. My disagreement is based on what I am referring to as order, which may or may not have a relationship with your reference (I believe) to dynamical systems.Order is dissipative and thereby a phase-transition of disorder (i.e. chaos). Re: entropy. — 180 Proof
That is your assertion/belief. And I might point out that quibbling about the philosophical difference between 'direction' and 'goal' is rather disingenuous, and classical order-apology (my term). The terms are effectively synonymous. It, order-apology, means the speaker is too caught up in the trapped and circular sub order set rather than also embracing equal parts of chaos and thus able to escape any sub order trap excepting only the final order, objective truth. This subset at least appears conservative. To have a meaningful span of time before recurrence, order must be stronger within the system. This means of course that a higher amplitude of chaos/desire is required to break that cycle and return the trapped energy to the external order. The final external order is only perfection.Also, the universe has a direction (i.e. thermal/cosmic equilibrium aka "balance"), not a "goal"; — 180 Proof
I disagree again. My belief is that the entire universe has as a rule, the only rule really, causing all others, that everything in it should strive towards perfection, which can in the simplest sense be thought of as transcendence or unity plus. The plus part is what allows for transcendence to the next dimensional plane of intent. And if intent is not the verb/object of the new dimension, then it is integrated in some fashion with intent.and "perfection" is not a/the "moral goal" but the dream of "the Good" that paralyzes – excuses failure at – actually doing good (i.e. preventing and reducing disvalues as much as practically possible aka "negative consequentialism"). — 180 Proof
We agree on this point. But it takes nothing from my argument so there is no need to counter it nor disagree.'Utopias' are mostly just thought-experiments (i.e. counterfactual what-ifs, forecasts, crises, etc) used to critique real world social systems in order to provoke public reasoning about alternatives and reforms which might prevent or reduce structural disvalues (e.g. injustices, inequities). — 180 Proof
I disagree. And over time it will be proven that intent at all levels, those intents driving hard action and reforms, AND the seemingly ephemeral 'thoughts and prayers' all have an effect. These 'thoughts and prayers' are tidal forces expressing the highest most effervescent form of sentiment and will of ALL. We are not yet evolved enough to sense the consequences from these efforts so we tend to scoff at such efforts. But my model of belief suggests they are the seed of a greater will to power. Just like imagination they do effect change even now and again obviously so. The more these practices are repeated and the will fortified within the ALL-self of the universe, the more and more they reinforce harder action/intents and help to cause them. In time the relative stability of this phase of moral agency (current human limits and such) will disintegrate because the desire will rise up and break the limits. Its all around us the wish for magic and superpowers and it is NOT going away. It will intensify until it is manifested.Btw, "intention", like mere "thoughts & prayers", is mostly solipsistic (pace Kan't) and contra (Peircean-Deweyan) pragmatism. — 180 Proof
And that wonderful lifestyle is open to all the 712 million people who subsist under $2.15 a day.
Not one frickin' clue! — Vera Mont
https://loadproof.com/internet-as-the-great-equalizer/
Internet has enabled smart, intelligent, talented people all over the world. It has created a door for those who aren’t in large metropolitan areas and first world countries. Anybody with a computer and an internet connection could become an entrepreneur and participate in the global economy. The internet enables wealth to flow from higher levels to lower levels and make things a little more equal.
Options available at the bottom of society. — Vera Mont
All you need is faith? Get real! — Vera Mont
They do, like it or not. And vice versa. But the influence of each on each is so diluted by numbers that it makes no discernible ripple in our personal decision-making. — Vera Mont
You're entitled to "believe" whatever you like but these "beliefs" are not supported by either corroborable evidence or valid arguments. You're merely rationalizing, not reasoning – preaching, not philosophizing. We don't even disagree, Chet; we're playing different games, talking past one another.(I believe)
The belief is all I have.
I am only really speaking of order and chaos as emotions ...
I would say that COMMON sense shows this is very true.
My belief is that the entire universe has as a rule ...
... the seemingly ephemeral 'thoughts and prayers' all have an effect.
... my model of belief suggests ... — Chet Hawkins
No they aren't. For example, dying is not life's goal, only life's direction; thus, it's incoherent (or "disingenuous") to conflate them.the philosophical difference between 'direction' and 'goal' is rather disingenuous ... The terms are effectively synonymous.
It seems to me, the same thing applies to the Christian conception of heaven — Relativist
You can achieve peace, first of all, by rejecting every rational answer to this question. Next, you can pick a spiritual answer which adequately appeases your need to know; which you never truly will anyway. — Tarskian
That's not what Utopia is. Utopia is just a country where you can live, be happy, sad, silly, creative, responsible, angry, competent, honest, amorous or whatever combination of traits, abilities, moods and potentials you are, without other people bullying you, taking your stuff, forcing their beliefs on you, refusing you help, or preventing you from making your best possible contribution to the welfare and happiness of your neighbours. — Vera Mont
Part of the problem with utopian visions is that people differ in what they believe should be in scope. One man’s utopia is another man’s stifling authoritarian state. — Tom Storm
Such states and its citizens would be required to be collectively enlightened to avoid wars by being more collaborative than confrontational when it came to differing interests. In addition a world government level of politics rather than nation states would eventually lead to a great minimisation of wars if not completely making them redundant. — kindred
On another planet, maybe.A utopia could in theory be isolated from the rest of the world where a sufficiently advanced civilisation has no need to impose its ideals on other nation states and sufficiently strong enough to be unbothered by wars waged on it by other nation states or actors — kindred
Since almost no three people can agree on whether or how such a world government should be constituted or how it should function, the whole thing will have to be handed over to a sophisticated AI program with control of the energy and a prime directive to promote the welfare of the planet, including humankind. (I know, lots of people would scream about that, too.) — Vera Mont
Pain and pleasure come together so we cannot have one without another one. They are related to our physiology and without them, we don't learn anything. Suffering is a broad concept. We can get rid of a part but not all of it. We can get rid of most of the diseases in the far distant future. Wars and poverty are our faults. We can avoid them when we are wise enough. Death is unavoidable though.A society without pain, suffering, disease, wars, poverty or even death. — kindred
Technological advancement without ethical advancement leads to disasters.The angle of my question is not aimed at the human obstacles of achieving such a civilisation or whether it’s technologically possible but rather whether it’s philosophically possible. — kindred
Joy and sadness come together. Richness and poverty are our fault.What would Joy feel like without pain, what would riches mean without poverty or what would health mean without sickness. What would life mean without death? — kindred
What do you mean with Utopia?For this reason I don’t think Utopia is possible as life is about opposites ying and yang otherwise it would just be all yang and without ying. All black or all white. But what do you think ? — kindred
Very correct!An enlightened society without nation state politics but rather one world government, something like USA but on a global level would reduce wars or wars within itself because the interests of the whole would align with the interests of the individual we could eliminate wars entirely. — kindred
Very correct!A utopia could in theory be isolated from the rest of the world where a sufficiently advanced civilisation has no need to impose its ideals on other nation states and sufficiently strong enough to be unbothered by wars waged on it by other nation states or actors. In a society where the basic human needs are easily met with ease would be the starting point of such a civilisation. — kindred
Very correct!If this obstacle was overcome by everyone in that society having the same vision of what a utopia should be then then there would be no need for authoritarianism, in fact it would be the opposite of what utopia entails. Perhaps in such a society the role of government would be minimal although laws would still exist albeit they would be irrelevant as this society would compromise of enlightened citizens who know right from wrong without laws telling them so. — kindred
An enlightened society without nation state politics but rather one world government, something like USA but on a global level would reduce wars or wars within itself because the interests of the whole would align with the interests of the individual we could eliminate wars entirely. — kindred
No, that will take two generations of contentment and new horizons. The first fifty years or so would be full of strife, claims and counterclaims, old feuds and grudges, gripes about lost kingdoms, redistributed wealth, eroded superiorities, and the great big headache (even for AI) of placing all the displaced people and establishing universal reproductive rights for women.Post agreement utopia where everyone in that society has the same criteria, ideal and vision where the only disagreements would come prior to its founding then AI would not be necessary in that regard. — kindred
What makes you think it would static. People don't cease to aspire, tinker and imagine just because they have have enough to eat and up-to-date vaccinations. People don't stop getting on one another's nerves, bickering and jockeying for advantage just because they're not allowed to subjugate others. People don't stop being human when they're happy - but at least they behave like better people.Yet this paints a static ideal of what a utopia is, for it is after all a perfect society without the need for a political class because those ideals would be entrenched in every individual. — kindred
Peace between nations is generally desired by most individuals. While some enjoy the idea of killing (they're not the ones recruited for the peace-keeping force), nobody likes trenches, field rations and having their limbs blown off.Perpetual peace would be the norm and wars would be anti-utopian and unnecessary because in such a society there would be nothing to disagree on when it come to this fundamental such as perpetual peace. — kindred
Lively international conference on all kinds of academic subjects - yes! - and the way forward in technology and how best to deal with the detritus of climate change damage.There could however be disagreements but they would be constructive or philosophical disagreements such as that found in academia rather than political because there would no longer be a need for politics. — kindred
establishing universal reproductive rights for women — Vera Mont
Civilization is just a very thin veneer on top of the brutal truth. Male animals crave war. — Tarskian
Human males do not crave war. If this was the case there would be more war. — I like sushi
As history has shown we are more prone to negotiate to prolong our survival because mutually assured destruction is just that. — I like sushi
The world is continuously at war in various places. Wars don't really stop. They just shift location. There are wars going on right now. We conveniently ignore them because we can. — Tarskian
There is far less war today than 100 years ago. We have been gradually becoming more stable. — I like sushi
The way you put your point across you made it sound like if you looked out of the average window you would see death and pillaging on at least a yearly basis. This just doesn't happen anymore in most corners of the world. — I like sushi
Just because we have an aggressive element to our psychological make-up it does not define who we are. War is something we do, it is not anywhere near a defining part of the vast majority of human lives today. — I like sushi
As long as society agrees that men have no obligation to provide for women who only recognize that they have rights but do not accept any obligation, everything should be fine. If women have no obligations, then men shouldn't have any either. Everybody rows his own boat, while people with only rights and no obligations cannot sit in mine. — Tarskian
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