:up:

Same old arguments: communism has killed 100 million people. Capitalism has killed more people and responsible for slavery, but that’s not really capitalism. So that doesn’t count. But Pol Pot counts. Stalin counts. China counts— except for the part where they’re now a superpower with several economic measures better than the US. That part is capitalism though. Etc. etc.

Anyway— even if communism was tried, and failed, it’s still the morally correct system. We’ve certainly given “capitalism” a shot — or “tried to bring it about” — and the track record is pretty grim. Maybe some people still love Pinochet though, who knows?

No one really cares what kind of companies and associations you like. In fact I’d hope you’d join one. But none of your evasions change the fact that the countries mentioned have communist governments, run by communist politicians from the dictates of a communist party, all of whom wrote the party and government constitutions that explicitly state their aim to bring about communism. None of it changes the fact that you said you hope Kamala is just like them, a communist.

All of the horrible things these people did and still do in order to realize their goal proves only the lengths they are willing to go through to get it, and also the types of behavior you are willing to put up with all because you believe an old and out-of-fashion theory.

More proof you lied you didn't read Marx. The US calls itself a democracy and has democratic principles in its constitution. Oops.

What proof? Empty assertions and evasions is all you’ve ever given.

First you hope for a communist politician and now you are trying to distance yourself from them.

Yes I hope for a real communist. But to understand what I mean, you need to read Marx, which you haven't, which is why you point to China. Lol.

Oh, a “real” communist. None of the other ones were real.

Do you know why someone would abuse the No True Scotsman Fallacy? To avoid valid criticisms of his argument. But to understand what I mean you’d have to have a shred of self-respect and decency.

If you had read Marx, you'd know it's not a fallacy. Once again, where's the common ownership of the means production in the systems you claim are communist? There's no such thing, so they're not communist.

It is a fallacy. And you’re telling me you hope Kamala Harris is a real communist while arguing that the entire Chinese communist party aren’t real communists. How can you dig a deeper hole?

answer my question.

For a year or more, Democrats have been facing the dim prospect of keeping a historically old, historically unpopular incumbent in the White House. Resignation and hopelessness were Joe Biden’s real running mates. Then with that debate performance, it became clear to the most significant forces in the party that Biden simply could not win in November. Amid a rising pressure campaign and worsening polls, the president yielded and stepped down from his reelection bid.

It was as if the Democratic Party had rediscovered a power that it had never used, maybe never even been aware of; far from being a “coup,” it was the execution of the essential task of a political party: The use of formal and informal power to protect itself from political disaster.

Within a matter of two weeks, voters now faced a reality that had previously seemed impossible: “You don’t want to vote for Biden or Trump? Now you don’t have to! You want change? Here she is!” The flood of money, volunteers and crowds toward Harris testifies to the power of that sentiment. — Trump’s Crucial Power Has Been Neutralized

I said months ago that the replacement of Biden would completely changed the dynamic of the election - and it has. That’s why MAGA is kvetching about it, waxing sentimental for ‘poor old Joe’, when really all they wanted was an easybeat.

I don’t follow politics that much but it’s everywhere right now. I think it’s important. There’s no way I’m voting Trump but I don’t love the other side either, although Walz seems like a good guy. RFK jr. has interesting stuff to say but is a little strange. The whole bear story and stuff like that. Are other people on the fence? Where are you all leaning?

A judgment and no argument. What is "bad faith" here? If a system that calls itself communism does not even feature the most basic point of Marx, that means of production should be owned in common, why exactly should we accept that it reflects "communism" let alone Marx' writing?

What is "bad faith" is having liars claim they know what they're talking about without having studied Marx and then having an idiot weigh in with a judgment out of the blue that nobody really cares about.

There’s no way I’m voting Trump — John McMannis

If so, then vote against him in the most effective way based on your situation: if you live in a swing state (i.e. polling trends are within the margin of error so that there is a reasonable chance for Trump to win your state), then vote "Harris-Walz"; if, however, you live in a safe state (i.e. Trump can't either lose or win that state), then vote for a third-party candidate who most aligns with your policy preferences (e.g. I will write-in "Cornel West" here in Washington state).

The common ownership of the means of production sits as a dream in the heads of communists, just like the dictatorship of the proletariat, the labor theory of value, class struggle, and a litany of failed communist predictions.

Trump is back on X.com

A category 5 ketchup shitstorm in Mar-a-Loco! :mask:

What is "bad faith" is having liars claim they know what they're talking about without having studied Marx and then having an idiot weigh in with a judgment out of the blue that nobody really cares about. — Benkei

What a bizarre level of irony. That said, it's clear you have an axe to grind. I'm sure you'll continue through several more failed states.

Shocking. — Mikie

I made a long list of Walz's leftist positions, from making Minnesota a sanctuary state for underage trans surgeries, to meeting five times with a Muslim cleric who admires Hitler. But there isn't much point. You're only here to argue a position, not have an intelligent discussion. Let me know if you ever have a substantive point to make.

So some say on the right, but the bill is pretty popular based on the polling I've seen and some swing voter focus groups seem to be upset at Trump for what he did. — Mr Bee

IMO the Dems have been able to spin the defeat of the bill as the Republicans blocking immigration reform. I did read the details of the bill at the time, and it would only have codified the existing mess, and made the GOP complicit in it. So the GOPs were right to block the bill, whether or not the public understands that. That would be my take.

Harris was smart to use it. They'll be running ads of Lankford saying it's a good bill from now until November. They're not gonna win on the issue of course but they can always muddle it and weaken an attack line. — Mr Bee

I don't deny that it is a talking point for the Dems. The GOPs have a hard time getting their point of view out. As I recall, Jeh Johnson, Obama's head of Homeland Security, said that more than 1500 illegal entries a day is a disaster. The bill allows up to 5000 before they even begin to do anything. More than three disasters a day. Why should the GOP sign on to that?

Because labels don't matter as much over policies. She's getting rid of the unpopular policies while keeping the popular ones. People care about border security more but they probably don't want kids to starve in school. That's the problem with using a single label to describe a large set of unrelated beliefs. — Mr Bee

Nonetheless, positions get classified as left or right. I agree with many liberal positions and disagree with many of Republican and conservative positions. Most of them, actually, as a fallen liberal. Matt Taibbi referred to himself the other day as a disaffected liberal. Of course he gets called a right winger too. Any liberal who strays off the plantation gets smeared as a right winger. In England you're a right winger if you object to little girls being stabbed to death. Ugly doings in Brit politics these days.

That implies that centrists always win which is certainly not true. The centrist coalition of Macron collapsed in France just recently to both the far-right and the far-left. — Mr Bee

Yes I agree. Someone noted that both Trump and Kamala are appealing to their respective bases. A "turnout" election rather than a "persuasion" one. Instead of trying to persuade the middle, both sides just want to whip up their base. The worst kind of brain dead politics on both sides IMO. Remember when Trump survived his assassination attempt (or it was all a massive psyop of some kind, but never mind that for the moment) and he came to the convention calling for Unity? That didn't last five minutes. He picked Vance, who's on the ticket to throw red meat to the base. I hate it. I was really hoping Trump would try to be a unifier. I wish SOMEONE would.

It's a pretty extensive record (just coped and pasted a list I found online):

- universal free school meals
- legal weed
- carbon free electricity by 2040
- tax rebates for the working class up to $1,300 (making under $150k per year)
- 12 weeks paid family leave
- 12 weeks paid sick leave
- banned conversion therapy
- red flag laws for guns
- universal background checks for guns
- automatic voter registration
- free public college (under $80k)
- ban on PFAS (forever chemicals)
- $2.2 billion increase in k-12 school funding
- sectoral bargaining for nursing home workers
- opposed Wall St bailouts in 2008
- voted against outsourcing deals
- supports lifting a moratorium on nuclear energy in Minnesota
- 100% rating from Planned Parenthood
- banned non-compete clauses
- raised minimum wage for small businesses
- raised taxes on multinational corporations
- protected gender affirming care
- banned medical providers from withholding care over debt
- protected construction workers from wage theft
- massive Minnesota infrastructure bill
- backed the Iran deal — Mr Bee

Thank you so much!!!! I think I'll cc my friend @Mikie. Hey Mikie this is the list I'd have posted to you if I felt like looking it all up. Thank you Mr Bee, much obliged.

I don't think you'll like all of them but there's a reason why progressives wanted him. — Mr Bee

I agree with some of those positions. Especially that fraudulent 2008 bailout. As the kids at Occupy said -- remember Occupy? -- Banks got bailed out, we got sold out!. Truer words never spoken.

The point, anyway, isn't agreement or disagreement with the positions. After all Democrats are perfectly happy with most of those. The point, as I think you agree with me, is that Walz is a leftist ... and why'd Kam pick a leftist if she's frantically paddling toward the center? Was against fracking now she's for it. Enabled Biden's open borders now she pretends to be an immigration hawk.

Seriously, who believes Kamala's an immigration hawk? She's on record wanting health care for illegals, and saying that illegal immigration isn't a crime (it is). So she's lying her ass off. But she may get away with it. We shall see.

In 2016 he was a new face and people at the very least loved that he shook up politics. Nowadays he's old news which is why I think he's likely to lose. — Mr Bee

Agree. Also in 2016 when he insulted people he was funny as hell. At least he was to me. When Megyn Kelly asked him at the first GOP debate if he was a demeaning asshole to women (not the exact words), he said, "Only to Rosie!" I just cracked up.

These days he's just angry and resentful. He won't let go of 2020. He's clearly not the man he was in 2020. I think he may well have a touch of the same kind of cognitive issues Biden's got. Trump is 78 and he's been through enormous stress the past four years.

I agree with you that he has a very good chance to lose. He could improve his chances of winning by staying focussed on the issues, but he's completely incapable of doing that.

Fraudulent media-protected campaign or not, Kam is out-working and out-hustling him. She could win.

The fundamental contrast in this race where it's old vs. new just doesn't work out to his benefit where it did with Biden when it was strength vs weakness or with Clinton when it was the outsider vs the corrupt insider. Kamala may not be the best candidate but she's a new face in a race where people wanted anything but Biden or Trump again, and that will probably be what will convince those undecided swing voters at the end of the day. People hated the status quo in 2016 and thought they had nothing to lose if they elected Donald, even if they had serious reservations about him. — Mr Bee

Yup. Trump carries enormous baggage. And Kam's better than Hillary. I personally do not dislike Kamala as much as I dislike Hillary.

People aren't complaining about that as much now. They're complaining about the price of groceries which haven't really gone down with gas and likely won't if it goes down any further. — Mr Bee

It's Trump's job to remind them of energy policy and the wild Biden-Harris overspending. Instead he's snarling about her rally crowds being faked. Maggie Haberman in the NYT reported that he's privately called her a "bitch." Seems Kam really has thrown Trump off balance.

That's actually what none of us foresaw. With all her weaknesses, Kamala is uniquely able to flummox Trump. She draws a big crowd and he fumes and throws out insults, instead of reminding people of the price of gas when he left office. He just can't find his groove. He used to be able to insult people to beat them but he can't do that with Kamala, it just makes him look small.

Certainly seems like they moved on from tampons and the BLM riots, — Mr Bee

We will be hearing much more about that after the Dem convention I imagine. I hope, anyway.

though we'll see how effective this line of attack is. As a layperson who understands nothing about the military, this whole tactic just comes across as a little gross. If this were a case of Walz just outright lying about being in the military entirely then I can understand but it seems like they're splitting hairs about whether he was in combat or not and seemingly undermining the decades of service he's done otherwise. — Mr Bee

He's repeatedly shown bad character, lying about his service, lying about his combat experience, lying about his rank, leaving (admittedly as was his legal right) just before his unit was to deploy to Iraq. A lot of his fellow soldiers are speaking out against him over that.

Of course Bill Clinton notoriously ducked out of military service, and it didn't hurt him. So it's just one issue out of many.

That and the fact that their guy actively avoided the Vietnam draft due to bonespurs yet feels like he can attack war heroes for what they've done. — Mr Bee

That's why Trump lets Vance do the attacking on the military issue.

Let me know if you ever have a substantive point to make. — fishfry

Substantive points like…

making Minnesota a sanctuary state for underage trans surgeries, to meeting five times with a Muslim cleric who admires Hitler. — fishfry

Yeah, you let me know too.

You’re the one that said you aren’t very familiar with his policies. So why you’re now arguing about it is odd.

Hey Mikie this is the list I'd have posted to you if I felt like looking it all up. — fishfry

universal free school meals
- legal weed
- carbon free electricity by 2040
- tax rebates for the working class up to $1,300 (making under $150k per year)
- 12 weeks paid family leave
- 12 weeks paid sick leave
- banned conversion therapy
- red flag laws for guns
- universal background checks for guns
- automatic voter registration
- free public college (under $80k)
- ban on PFAS (forever chemicals)
- $2.2 billion increase in k-12 school funding
- sectoral bargaining for nursing home workers
- opposed Wall St bailouts in 2008
- voted against outsourcing deals
- supports lifting a moratorium on nuclear energy in Minnesota
- 100% rating from Planned Parenthood
- banned non-compete clauses
- raised minimum wage for small businesses
- raised taxes on multinational corporations
- protected gender affirming care
- banned medical providers from withholding care over debt
- protected construction workers from wage theft
- massive Minnesota infrastructure bill
- backed the Iran deal — Mr Bee

Sounds good to me. So your point is that Mr Bee can make substantive points, but that you could too if you tried. Cool. Guess you really showed me.

The Fed isn't supposed to make rate changes during an election cycle, but they're probably going to have to in September. They're expected to lower the rate in keeping with jobs data. Wall Street will party and the economy will look good. That's bad for Trump, obviously.

The Fed isn't supposed to make rate changes during an election cycle, but they're probably going to have to in September. They're expected to lower the rate in keeping with jobs data. Wall Street will party and the economy will look good. That's bad for Trump, obviously. — frank

I thought the Fed was apolitical and does whatever it wanted? Their one job is to not let the economy crash regardless of the political narrative it creates. I mean Trump and the Republicans will be mad at a booming economy if it helps their enemies but let's be honest Trump would be harassing the Fed every day to cut rates if he were president right now.

communism — Benkei

I'm skeptical. Not so much that there are neat ideas to be found, but of the implementation. Lenin, Mao and others might have thought they had it, but that turned out differently. How would it go? And in a larger, diverse environment?

(ok, don't want to side-track the thread, should perhaps be moved elsewhere)

Co-ops are communist. Think of it that way. Far closer to anything in the USSR or China.

Simplified a bit, but it’s one way to think of the matter if it’s a struggle to get your mind around.

Any process that creates power vacuums are in danger of being co-opted by undemocratic forces. The other side of that coin, is it could work the other way around. Basically, communism is in a simple sense about more democracy instead of less.

I thought the Fed was apolitical and does whatever it wanted? — Mr Bee

Trump has made it clear that if he is elected it will have to answer to him.

Perhaps too scared to face hard-hitting question, whether about Harris’ flip-flopping or questions about Waltz’s stolen valor, Harris and Waltz interview each other!

It’s all an opaque act, a virtual candidacy, like Biden: the election of a figure head to represent the US in world political pageantry.

No, don’t be fooled, communism is not cooperatives and more democracy. These little tales are what they tell you to trick you into giving up your freedoms. Next thing you know you’re in a labor camp.

Most people already are in slave labour but you wouldn't know with the myopic worldview you have. The above is just dumb unsubstantiated conservative regurgitated word vomit, which you lap up daily. It's just weird.