If this is it, then it seems to me there are many rather then "very, very few," although to be sure also those that weren't and are not. But what exactly did Jesus do that makes him his own class of one - and membership so difficult?Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."
— Matthew 16:24
Thus speaks the man who ought to know, and according to His standard, there are very very few Christians or have ever been; nor is belief the criterion. — unenlightened
"Christians" have been accusing each other of blasphemy, setting each other beyond the pale as apostates, heretics, heathens, or whatever, from before the time when the Bible as we know it was compiled; the texts to be included and those to be exiled to the Apocrypha were part of that conflict. Whatever consensus of belief has come to be accepted by you or anyone else about what constitutes a Christian has been arrived at through debate and conflict that has rejected more inclusive positions. — unenlightened
In discussing Mormonism, you're confusing me with someone else; I've expressed nothing on the subject. — tim wood
You seem unclear about your own topic. On the one hand, people will claim all kinds of things, on the other is the question as to what something is and is not. — tim wood
On the topic of what Christianity is, with respect to the existence of God, I offer the following excerpt.
"[T]he proposition ‘God exists’ would seem to mean that there is a being more or less like human beings in respect of his mental powers and dispositions, but having the mental powers of a human being greatly, perhaps infinitely, magnified.... I have no fear of being contradicted when I say that the meaning I suppose to be attached by this author to the proposition ‘God exists’ is a meaning Christian theologians have never attached to it, and does not even remotely resemble the meaning which with some approach to unanimity they have expounded at considerable length....The creeds in which Christians have been taught to confess their faith have never been couched in the formula: ‘God exists and has the following attributes’; but always in the formula: ‘I believe’ or originally ‘We believe in God’ ; and have gone on to say what it is that I, or we, believe about him." An Essay on Metaphysics, pp. 186-188. And here:
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.187414/page/n195/mode/2up — tim wood
Or to dumb it down, I hope not fatally, two questions to be answered in turn. Do you believe in unicorns? Do they exist? — tim wood
Believe: to think that something is true, correct, or real — Cambridge Dictionary
I should have anticipated that introducing the term "blasphemy" would elicit moralistic non sequitur from a secular audience (which is also ultimately self-contradictory, but I digress). The argument remains:
It is blasphemous for a Christian to consider themselves God's ontological equal, either now or in the future.
Mormons consider themselves God's ontological equal, either now or in the future.
Therefore, Mormons are not Christians.
"Blasphemy is mean" is not a logical response. — Leontiskos
Yet I'll take [X] over [Y]. — BitconnectCarlos
I fumble-fingered away a decent paragraph in reply. It happens sometimes; hit the wrong keys and the text instantly vanishes. The point is that unicorns both exist and don't exist. That leaves the problem of defining "existence." Belief neatly sidesteps the problem. And your dictionary reference nails it,What sense does it make to believe in unicorns without believing that unicorns exist — Leontiskos
That is, that you think it so, not that it thereby necessarily is so..Believe: to think that something is true, correct, or real — Cambridge Dictionary
The point is that unicorns both exist and don't exist. That leaves the problem of defining "existence." Belief neatly sidesteps the problem. — tim wood
What is the crux of the thesis you are proposing? It seems to me something like, <Christianity does not teach that God exists>, or else, <Christianity professes belief in God without in any way committing itself to God's existence>.
If this is not what you are saying, then what are you saying? — Leontiskos
We are not discussing the question of who you "will take." We are discussing the question of whether Mormons are Christian. — Leontiskos
Evidence? Apparently it is meaningless to call this a belief, so, evidence?Or:
God exists as an immaterial being. — Leontiskos
Have I disagreed with this? Now you tell us, what makes it true?You can take it as a general rule of life that to say one believes X is to say that one believes X is true. — Leontiskos
Ultimately, for the Christian, what matters is who is in Christ. — BitconnectCarlos
They believe they'll one day become Gods, no? — BitconnectCarlos
Theosis (Ancient Greek: θέωσις), or deification (deification may also refer to apotheosis, lit. "making divine"), is a transformative process whose aim is likeness to or union with God, as taught by the Eastern Catholic Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Church; the same concept is also found in the Latin Church of the Catholic Church, where it is termed "divinization". As a process of transformation, theosis is brought about by the effects of catharsis (purification of mind and body) and theoria ('illumination' with the 'vision' of God). According to Eastern Christian teachings, theosis is very much the purpose of human life. It is considered achievable only through synergy (or cooperation) of human activity and God's uncreated energies (or operations).
This thought experiment is highly unsophisticated and further, irrational. Suppose somehow? The somehow, or the 'in some way' would have to be explicitly stated and put forth, otherwise it's an exercise in futility. — Ray Liikanen
- That post was never edited. — Leontiskos
Christians and Mormons are a bit like bees and wasps. The uninitiated is liable to confuse them but someone who understands their significant differences—their respective theologies and histories—will see them as very different animals. Of course if one doesn't care and only wants to avoid being stung, then one can think of bees and wasps as identical. — Leontiskos
It's just an aspect of the inherent divisiveness of Christianity. — wonderer1
This is a good example of the non sequitur I referred to earlier. "Christians are divisive, therefore Mormons are Christians." The conclusion does not follow. — Leontiskos
This is not an argument. It is an emotional appeal for inclusivity. — Leontiskos
But what exactly did Jesus do that makes him his own class of one - and membership so difficult? — tim wood
The difficulty for followers though is that he did it for others, whereas followers tend to do it for their own salvation — unenlightened
Don't know why I never thought about it this way. Well put — flannel jesus
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