The French? Haha. — Tzeentch

When it comes to the history of Syria and Lebanon, the French have been major influencers. Just like the British had a role with Mandate Palestine played a role in the conflict this thread is about.

Zzz....Baseless insinuations of racism reeks of intellectual exhaustion and doesn't bode well for whatever else you have to bring to the table. — Tzeentch

You of course don't even notice that what you are promoting here, that "Israel is doomed" is a talking point of the islamofobes on the right.

No, they wouldn't. — Tzeentch

Ummm... if a gun has an effective range of 2000 meters, the it can shoot 2000 meters forward and 2000 meters back. Guns, especially AAA can traverse 360 degrees. :snicker:

AAA relies on line-of-sight, and engaging targets at equal elevation rarely happens at ranges exceeding 2 kms simply because of geographical factors. — Tzeentch

:rofl: :rofl: :joke: :razz: Have you any idea of the utter crazyness you are saying???

Do you have any idea of the curvature of the Earth? Have you ever been outside and measured distances? If you are next to the sea and let's say you are at 2 meter height, the horizon is then at 5 kilometers. But anything higher than on the surface of the water, you will see further. And obviously AAA are deploy in places they can see in the air. In fact, in aerial engagements it's extremely typical that targets are engaged (or could be engaged) in longer distances than 2 kilometers. By NATO standards weapon systems having only 2-3 kilometers of range are described "very short range".

And the simply fact is that drone do not huge literally the ground...only when they have wheels, but then they aren't airborne. Anyway, you have no idea what you are talking about, so just change the subject.

When it comes to the history of Syria and Lebanon, the French have been major influencers. Just like the British had a role with Mandate Palestine played a role in the conflict this thread is about. — ssu

Historically, sure. But contemporarily I see no point in spending time talking about whatever little bit of influence they might have. It's obviously the US and Israel who have rolled the nickels in the Middle-East for decades. They are principally responsible.

You of course don't even notice that what you are promoting here, that "Israel is doomed" is a talking point of the islamofobes on the right. — ssu

Well, then the islamophobes are right.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and I have no problem in acknowledging that when it is.

Ummm... if a gun has an effective range of 2000 meters, the it can shoot 2000 meters forward and 2000 meters back. Guns, especially AAA can traverse 360 degrees. :snicker: — ssu

Anti-air range is always given in radius, not diameter, smart ass. Didn't they teach you anything in the army?

Do you have any idea of the curvature of the Earth? Have you ever been outside and measured distances? If you are next to the sea and let's say you are at 2 meter height, the horizon is then at 5 kilometers. But anything higher than on the surface of the water, you will see further. And obviously AAA are deploy in places they can see in the air. In fact, in aerial engagements it's extremely typical that targets are engaged (or could be engaged) in longer distances than 2 kilometers. By NATO standards weapon systems having only 2-3 kilometers of range are described "very short range".

And the simply fact is that drone do not huge literally the ground...only when they have wheels, but then they aren't airborne. Anyway, you have no idea what you are talking about, so just change the subject. — ssu

It's obviously you who has no idea.

I'm not talking about geographical draft. I'm talking about how geographical terrain factors make direct-fire engagements at equal elevation rarely exceed 2 kms.

That has been well-established since WW2, and hasn't changed significantly since. Most tanks are still zeroed in on ranges around 1.2km for precisely that reason, and the majority of engagements take place at ranges below even that.

The main problem with modern drones is their low flight altitude and their strong capability to use terrain masking (which is much greater than that of modern jets or cruise missiles). Hamas drones are literally loitering above Israeli troops. Where is the air defense? Why aren't they using AAA? Please, make an educated guess.

2-3km range is indeed very short in air defense terms, which is why AAA is used for close protection. This is exactly the problem with your suggestion of using that type of weaponry to cover a large area. How are you going to achieve overlap and mutual support to avoid defeat in detail? The 100km+ range systems that used to provide that are not (cost) effective against drones. Small drones they cannot even target.

Had you remotely known how modern air defense works, you would realize how absurd your suggestion even is.

And we are not talking about aerial engagements in general. We are talking about the effectiveness of AAA against drones in an area coverage role. This is what you were advocating. I understand you'd like me to change the subject, but we are not going to until you stop talking out of your ass.

Don't you remember that even Hamas itself acknowledged that there were "some faults" on attacking civilians? Yep, even they admitted it: — ssu

Are they also sorry for the many hostages they've abducted and subsequently tortured and executed in captivity? Another 6 more today. Of the ~250 they stole only ~20 remain alive today and they're being used as human shields for Sinwar. Is Hamas sorry for this too?

Hamas's apology for 10/7 is absurd. What are they sorry for exactly? Was it the rape? Or was it the torture? Ideally, should they only have murdered? It's nonsense.

A large portion of the world sympathizing with it and even considering it justified? Really???? — ssu

Hamas support is surprisingly present on college campuses, particularly elite universities. That is cause for worry. Hamas support/sympathy is more popular with the youth. Our future leaders.

"The poll also indicated that 81 percent of voters believe that Hamas is a terrorist group, though among Gen Z, the number falls to 61 percent."

https://www.newsweek.com/poll-seeks-unravel-why-gen-z-appears-more-anti-israel-others-1893005

Indeed. Yet annexing territory is one of the most difficult things for any state to get acceptance from other states. Just look at the response of Russia annexing parts of Ukraine. Or Morocco with Spanish Sahara. — ssu

The situation in the WB is very complicated. In some cases its Jewish settlements being "annexed" by Israel -- in other words, places which were already Jewish and possibly have been for centuries. I believe there's been continuous Jewish presence in the West Bank since antiquity.

That is cause for worry. — BitconnectCarlos

In this context, though predictable, it's (also) worrisome that Jews and Muslims have seen increased hostility in all kinds of places, more antisemitism and Islamophobia, following the conflict.

No longer about the regional threat to Israelis and injustice to Palestinians, and, as far as I can tell anyway, those are the main troubles to be figured out, preferably in the same round.

Is that what those ("elite") protesters want, though?

That is cause for worry. — BitconnectCarlos

Since 1967 the US/Nato-backed, land-thieving colonist-settler oppressor regime is "threatened" by the apartheid-brutalized oppressed whom the oppressor regime systematically slaughters and further displaces with indiscriminate collective punishment for "terrorism" by violent religious extremists (i.e. Islamists? Zionists?) ... backed for decades by the oppressor regime in order to preserve the "threat" by preventing – eliminating the possibility of – a "Two State" peace. History teaches: more often than not, oppressors with everything to lose by continuing to oppress have much more to "worry" about than the oppressed with nearly less than nothing to lose – e.g. Rhodesia, Vietnam, Algeria, South Africa, Saint-Domingue, Cuba, Eritrea, N. Ireland, etc – from the river to the sea! :fire:

backed for decades by the oppressor regime in order to preserve the "threat" by preventing – eliminating the possibility of – a "Two State" peace. — 180 Proof

Two states does not bring peace. It only strengthens the Palestinians (both PLO and Hamas) in their quest to conquer the entirety of Israel and subjugate/murder the entirety of the Jewish population living there as is stated explicitly in both groups foundational documents and repeatedly reiterated.

Same old vacuous, ahistorical, Zionist/Likudnik talking points which at least half the current Israeli population (and most secular antifascist members of the UN & ICJ) call bullshit. :shade:

Hamas's apology for 10/7 is absurd. — BitconnectCarlos

It's naturally not an apology. But it was an admission that civilians were killed. But hardly they feel or have anything to apologize given the multiple amount of dead Palestinians.

Hamas support is surprisingly present on college campuses, particularly elite universities. That is cause for worry. Hamas support/sympathy is more popular with the youth. Our future leaders. — BitconnectCarlos

Don't go all in with the culture war discourse and put your brains out on the shelf. It is as silly as the talk from leftists about Trump supporters the racist alt-right neonazis.

With a small search, I couldn't even find a picture of a US campus protest with Hamas flags. Multiple Palestinian flags yes, but those holding Palestinian flags aren't supporters of Hamas. If they are truly supporters of Hamas, then they should at least have the proper flag:

This one:


Not this one:


And the majority think that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Yet if the question is that if they sympathize with the Palestinian people, it's the culture war bullshit to say then that they sympathize with Hamas.

I have had enough of this alarmist culture-war media discourse, which treats everybody as brain dead.

In reality, the majority of students today, just as in our time or in the 1960's simply try to study and get a degree and get an interesting job. A tiny minority are the so-called "activists" anytime, yet they talk as they own the time (or the era) and unfortunately many people believe that they indeed represent all students.

Which is as crazy as thinking that Greta Thunberg represented the children ....until she got to be 18.



But hey, no need for her to go to school. Even the University of Helsinki made her a honorary doctor, so there's an academic career all done when your 21! :blush:

So now onwards to the next activist fest... and trying desperately to be and stay hip and in the limelight with the times as an adult! (I'm not sure, but is Greta's mom behind her?)


But feel free to swim in it if you want. Yes, your future American leaders worship Hamas. How could they do anything else?

Two states does not bring peace — BitconnectCarlos

Maybe not, at least not "just like that".
Yet, given the existing hostilities and hostile neighbors, how much difference would two states make?
Would it not be worthwhile, at least? A sign of good will, for that matter?
The perpetual hostilities aren't helping.
The Israeli existential threat/fear is understandable enough, and so is the injustice to Palestinians.
In case the new state ("Palestine") was to run amok, then the world would see; Israel can defend itself against a demarcated state. Israel could stand up as a bastion of humanitarian values, perhaps even attract/influence Palestinians on that account.
I don't know, but wouldn't dismiss two states with a handwave.

Two states means Hamas is much more easily able to import heavy weaponry. It's a massive security risk.

And Israel has tried the goodwill approach. Pulled out entirely from Gaza in 2005. The communities that Hamas exterminated were the peaceful ones who worked towards integration with the Palestinians.

You cannot negotiate with an enemy is fully committed to eating you. There can be temporary ceasefires and diffusion of hostilities, but never truly peace.

Of the ~6k Palestinians that breached the border on 10/7 over 2000 of them were regular palestinian civilians who were given the opportunity to murder their neighbors and they gleefully partook. They took up guns and blunt force instruments to murder and torture their neighbors once they saw they had the opportunity. That's insane for me to think about.

those holding Palestinian flags aren't supporters of Hamas. — ssu

This is debatable though:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_for_Justice_in_Palestine#Criticism_and_controversies
https://www.haaretz.com/haaretz-explains/2023-11-17/ty-article/.premium/what-is-students-for-justice-in-palestine-the-group-igniting-u-s-campus-wars-over-israel/0000018b-d950-dffa-adef-ff50463f0000
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2023/10/10/psc-statement-backlash/
https://www.intelligent.com/1-in-5-college-students-sympathize-with-hamas/
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/the-campus-war-on-israel/

Hezbollah's flags look more popular:
https://x.com/SprinterFamily/status/1783619759927435275
https://x.com/JakeSherman/status/1826708643456209366
https://www.yahoo.com/news/jewish-student-slams-princeton-permitting-201822811.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAEek4XJ_k0Ey2uSa09f3cxyI6eEtqqUCrWm8b70Nv-YxyDWtQrBcSVpJ7D9CfDu6FssmdfamVAbp9v09Qe9fTfUU2F1djtippl4Um_gMGx34A9kG4gg_MvOhv__SkbufLbEHXBdrr0KDgl1bQ5l4Ujj-hdblzGPStNWgf2wpyAsc

To me the problem is still in the way issues are framed. Indeed, even though one can explicitly be pro-Palestinian in a broader sense without being explicitly pro-Hamas, that doesn't exclude the fact that many pro-Palestinians are willingly walking over grey lines to obfuscate themselves and their interlocutors about their position toward Hamas for the same reasons Tzeench laid out:

The first thing that needs happen is for Israel to stop its belligerent occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. Until that happens, Hamas is simply a resistance movement that is reacting to being occupied by Israel. Armed resistance isn't even forbidden under such conditions according to international law, and Israel, being the occupier, cannot legally claim self-defense. — Tzeentch

https://springmag.ca/york-university-student-unions-statement-of-solidarity-with-palestine
In response to Palestinian resistance, so-called Israel has continued to escalate attacks on Gaza by bombing residential neighborhoods, deploying white phosphorus bombs and cutting off access to food, water, power and medical supplies. These tactics are not new. So-called Israel has continually restricted Palestinians movement to & from Gaza, creating an open-air prison and obstructing access to essential resources within the apartheid fence for decades. These recent events serve as a reminder that from Turtle Island to Palestine, and across all occupied lands, resistance against colonial violence is justified and necessary. This is “decolonization” and “land-back” actualized as we continue to see the Palestinian people stand firm in their resistance against their oppressors.

If they are truly supporters of Hamas, then they should at least have the proper flag:

They were out yesterday in NYC marching with this flag. Hamas and Hezbollah flags present at those rallies.

Yet if the question is that if they sympathize with the Palestinian people, it's the culture war bullshit to say then that they sympathize with Hamas.

Everybody sympathizes with the innocent Palestinians just as anyone ought to sympathize with the innocent. But sympathy is not the same as support. Israel clearly sympathizes with the Palestinians as they just conducted polio vaccines there.

It is as silly as the talk from leftists about Trump supporters the racist alt-right neonazis.

Yet some Trump supporters are alt-right racists. Alt-right racists, and dare I say even nazis, do tend to fall into the Trump camp. Yet not all Trump supporters are alt-racist racists. And on the left the hard left and Islamists will likely end up voting Harris or voting for Democrats.

But feel free to swim in it if you want. Yes, your future American leaders worship Hamas. How could they do anything else?

It's not that far-fetched. We already have members in Congress like Tlaib and Omar in that camp. They're careful with their words but essentially they fall on the hard anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian side.

I encourage you to read the anti-semitism report about Columbia University, one of America's most elite universities -- I'm convinced that we're no fundamentally different than we were in the 1930s. We like to think humanity has advanced and become more progressive/kinder but the veil is slowly being lifted as more and more Jews are assaulted just for being Jews.

This is debatable though: — neomac

Then shouldn't they show the flag, march in step in what they believe?

Hezbollah's flags look more popular: — neomac

Hezbollah is different. It's been the Palestinians, PLO before Hamas, that has used traditional terror tactics. I think the only accusation to Hezbollah has been the attack on Khobar Towers in 1996, which the US holds to be an Hezbollah / Iranian-backed attack. Yet Hezbollah in Lebanon was formed in response of the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon and mainly it has been fighting the Israeli armed forces. And of course there is the Shia Sunni divide between Hamas and Hezbollah.

And your video is a perfect example of the media bias ...this example on the right-wing side. Are the demonstrators really celebrating Hamas, as the interviewer says? Celebrating Hamas? And the decapitated babies rumour? Still going on?

God I hate this stupidity.

Israel clearly sympathizes with the Palestinians as they just conducted polio vaccines there. — BitconnectCarlos

Clearly sympathizes?

I recal them saying that Gaza is an evil city. And the Palestinians in Gaza are also guilty, because they voted (years ago) Hamas to power. But now they've conducted polio vaccines... :roll:

Well, I guess they have also let in food, as typically no human, not even an Palestinian, can live soon a whole year without eating.

I recal them saying that Gaza is an evil city. — ssu

That was right after 10/7. Bibi compared Hamas to Amalek, I remember that specifically. Honestly I'd say it's an apt comparison. It's ugly but I can't argue with truth.

Clearly sympathizes?

Israel also provides medical care for wounded Palestinians. And provides amnesty for LGBTQ Palestinians who are danger of being murdered by their government.

It doesn't make sense that Gaza is reliant on Israel for food. Can't they make their own? Same with water. It's not expensive to provide.

It doesn't make sense that Gaza is reliant on Israel for food. Can't they make their own? Same with water. It's not expensive to provide. — BitconnectCarlos

Are you serious?

Look at the how tiny the place is and how many people live there. Add to the fact that what isn't allowed is the natural answer, a harbor or port, that could create trade, which keeps city states fed (and basically Gaza is a city state). Before this war, there was a puny fishing harbor for only the smallest vessels, but nothing for actual cargo ships. Kept so on purpose, just like there is no airport. Or freely open land borders.

Sorry, but Gaza is really an open air prison, where the guards have just moved to siege the prison from the outside. And now have moved back inside. To say that Palestinians "are incapable of this and that" and forgetting the open air prison doesn't cut it.

This is debatable though: — neomac

Then shouldn't they show the flag, march in step in what they believe? — ssu

There have been pro-Palestinian protestors who did that in the US:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KRE_hIMFVU
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/protesters-spotted-holding-hamas-flags-151851331.html
https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1417172/hezbollah-and-hamas-flags-waved-during-pro-palestinian-demonstration-in-new-york.html
https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/war-in-israel/white-house-condemns-anti-israel-protesters-supporting-hamas/

But, more generally, I think the most pertinent answer to your question is no.
Concerning the war in Ukraine, there are pro-Russians in Western media (as in the dedicated thread of this forum) who do not go around waving Russian flags and chanting “Slava Rossii”.
They embrace the Russian or Hamas narrative about facts and responsibilities, and the resistance narrative: Russians and Palestinians have been provoked and they are defending themselves. The greatest burden of responsibility remains on the West, the US, Ukraine or Israel which means that the West, the US, Ukraine or Israel are not in position to reproach the perceived aggressors (Russia or Hamas) or to impose just punishment or to refuse concessions to the perceived aggressors.
Pro-Palestinians activists do not need to explicitly justify Hamas’ response to Israel to be considered pro-Hamas, they can even condemn it (many actually do, when solicited), yet they will complain about Israel in relative terms as way worse than Hamas, and as the one who started all of it, no matter the Jewish history and Israeli security concerns.
The emotional argument (genocide in Gaza, Israel as an apartheid state, Gaza as an open air prison, war crimes against Palestinian kids and civilians etc.) is implicitly meant to back up a psychological excuse for Hamas’ most brutal aggression against Israelis, while granting pro-Palestinians a plausible disclaimer about their morally ambiguous position toward Hamas and a cheap accusation against their opponents' alleged misrepresentations of their own views. The same goes with Western pro-Russian supporters as we can see in the thread dedicated to the war in Ukraine.

And your video is a perfect example of the media bias ...this example on the right-wing side. Are the demonstrators really celebrating Hamas, as the interviewer says? Celebrating Hamas? And the decapitated babies rumour? Still going on?

God I hate this stupidity. — ssu

If we want to assess to what extent the pro-Palestinian front is willing to support Hamas’ resistance against the Israeli oppression, we have to focus on them and on their propaganda, not on pro-Israel propaganda. And from that video one can clearly hear such students to be supportive of martyrdom, provocation, and resistance narrative, while refusing to explicitly acknowledge their implications when such narrative is to be applied to Hamas. If they were forced to, I believe they would likely go with “yes, but who started all of it?”, “who did worse to the other?”, etc. to cope with their cognitive dissonance.
What people talking politics do not seem to realise is that they are not Olympian gods refereeing human affairs. They all are part of the same political game, and all they say and do can be instrumental one way or the other to others’ political ends, even the ones they claim to dislike or morally condemn.

They all are part of the same political game, — neomac

...just like the interviewer with her own political bias.

And I support Ukraine and am against the Russian invasion of that country and respect very those Finns who have gone and fought in Ukraine. I've even met a couple and talked with them, and to my surprise, they are very much respected.

I am definately sure that those American students who protest for Palestine are far more protesting for the end of the conflict and for an independent Palestine (with the Apartheid system ending) than supporters of the armed branches of the Palestinians in a way that would put them on a terrorist watch list.

A prison of their own making formed through their own fanatical commitment to destroying their stronger neighbor. — BitconnectCarlos

In their own making in the way that they've been on a losing side of a war with Israel, that is true.

Sorry, but Gaza is really an open air prison

A prison of their own making formed through their own fanatical commitment to destroying their stronger neighbor. The billions they've received in aid line the pockets of their leadership and go towards their underground terror tunnels.

...just like the interviewer with her own political bias. — ssu

...just like anybody else, me and you included. And that's why I think a philosophy forum is an ideal place to honestly identify, explicit and argue about the grounds of such bias wrt the bias of one's opponents without the pretence we are going to fix anything about the world by doing this. gnōthi sauton should be our philosophical motto too.

I am definately sure that those American students who protest for Palestine are far more protesting for the end of the conflict and for an independent Palestine (with the Apartheid system ending) than supporters of the armed branches of the Palestinians in a way that would put them on a terrorist watch list. — ssu

I don't doubt that either. Yet one must be naive, if not disingenuous, to believe that those pro-Palestinian students "protesting for the end of the conflict and for an independent Palestine (with the Apartheid system ending)" may have a political impact immune from risks such as costly unintended consequences (like being instrumental to Hamas) where the most direct costs are on Israeli's and Jewish shoulders. If governments' legitimacy and accountability highly depend on the governments' capacity of preserving security (whatever that means) of those who willingly submit to it, we should not expect governments to pursue security of foreign people at the expense of domestic people's security. Actually we are compelled to expect quite the contrary, especially if security concerns between foreign and domestic people are perceived as incompatible for historical and geopolitical reasons. Then of course you can add on top of that the risk of nasty polarising propaganda and politicians' selfish interest on one or both sides, among others. My point is that one can't convincingly flatten the analysis of this conflict down just to nasty propaganda on one or both sides. I find it shallow, if not hypocritical, and arrogant. Even more so if this is done in a philosophy forum.

In their own making in the way that they've been on a losing side of a war with Israel, that is true. — ssu

Possibly connected, in some way, to their unflinching insistence on their (stronger) neighbor's destruction and replacement with Islamic rule. /s

Never mind that this has not been the position of the PLO and hasn't been the position of Hamas for years. So what you're doing is lying, plain and simple. Just stop it.

Never mind that this has not been the position of the PLO and hasn't been the position of Hamas for years. — Benkei

Really? My quick online research shows just the opposite. Perhaps you can direct me to sources that will make clear that they have changed. Of course, if they have, that makes 7 Oct. even less comprehensible.

Oh of course - Hamas surely has no interest in ruling Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or Haifa. They're actually an enlightened lot who are glad to share the land with their Jewish neighbors. Who says Islam needs to rule? Certainly not Hamas. They embrace religious diversity.

Similarly communism is also the best system. It just wasn't carried out well. If only the transition to it was led by people like you who truly understand the word of Marx.

"B-but Hamas..."

Ehud Barak said it best:

If I was [a Palestinian] at the right age, at some stage I would have entered one of the terror organizations and have fought from there, [...]

That's not saying anything. We'd have all probably been teenage Nazis in Nazi Germany assuming the right conditions.

That's personal psychology.

That's not saying anything. — BitconnectCarlos

Keep clownin', bud.

Some even relatively conservative Israelis do have sympathy for the Palestinian cause at certain points. IIRC Benny Morris was sympathetic to the first intifada, but not the second.

But we're talking history here not current events. No Israeli is imagining themselves as Hamas today going into the tunnels.

Maybe question yourself a bit more when you feel the need to lie to yourself to make yourself feel good for defending oppressors and murderers.

You need only peruse this thread. I've set out Hamas' official position for years with reference to official statements. But go ahead and keep digging through tiktoks.