Indeed, Protestant scholars tried to make exactly this sort of argument as they struggled to dislodge Greek thought from their form of Christianity (which is quite difficult given its influence is all over the NT and clearly in some OT books, such as the Wisdom of Solomon). — Count Timothy von Icarus
That's right, and therefore claiming to be the messiah is not blasphemy. — Leontiskos
The view that Yahweh can be man is shared by no Jewish sect ever but I grant you that it is possible that his followers believed it.
The question then is whether the term 'divine' as it is used by Paul when preaching to the Gentiles and by the Greek speaking authors of the Gospels are claiming that Jesus is God or a god or rather of God.
St. Paul states in unambiguous terms that Christ existed from before the foundations of the cosmos — Count Timothy von Icarus
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
As for the "Greek authors," the entire New Testament is in Greek. — Count Timothy von Icarus
But per his own reckoning, not one single word written by a Disciple has come down to us. But no one wants to buy a book that says "it's impossible to know," — Count Timothy von Icarus
To be more precise, he is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation.
John leaves out the second part. If Jesus understood himself to be a son of God in this sense then he is not the one unique Son"
Yes. That is the point. They are not Jesus' Jewish disciples. If any of them were Jewish they still spoke to a gentile audience with gentile ears, that is, with gentile and/or pagan beliefs and understanding.
We do not know what Jesus said or taught. Between Jesus and the Gospels stand many voices
These are not statements that apply to angles or even Zeus. — Count Timothy von Icarus
1 Timothy 3:16) — Count Timothy von Icarus
It is readily apparent that the "Son" is not one son among many in John. — Count Timothy von Icarus
There is a distinction between the sheep and the Good Shepherd — Count Timothy von Icarus
The Septuagint was motivated by the fact that they increasingly only wrote and read Greek. — Count Timothy von Icarus
(Language of Jesus)There exists a consensus among scholars that the language of Jesus and his disciples was Aramaic.
,,, that Paul was a gentle, — Count Timothy von Icarus
Nor is it in any sense definitive that none of the epistles attributed to Jesus disciples were written by them. I have no idea where you are getting this certitude. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Well no, this is also overreaching. You keep using the lack of definitive evidence as an excuse to make definitive claims. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Can you provide some examples of that? — Paine
These are not statements that apply to angles or even Zeus. — Count Timothy von Icarus
There were also Jewish Christians who nonetheless followed Jewish law into the fifth century. — Count Timothy von Icarus
John M. Frame's "A History of Western Philosophy and Theology," is a fine example of such a view. Frame is "unapologetically Reformed," as positive reviews put it. And this shows in things like him dismissing the whole of the Christian mystical tradition and the idea of divine union or theosis as "unbiblical" a term he uses even for writers who quote Scripture virtually every line. Obviously, the idea isn't that folks like St. Bernard of Clairvaux don't use the Bible. It's that they lost the original (correct) understanding of the Bible under the influence of Platonism, Stoicism, etc. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Enoch 45:1 Parable the second, respecting these who deny the name of the habitation of the holy ones, and of the Lord of spirits.
Enoch 45:2 Heaven they shall not ascend, nor shall they come on the earth. This shall be the portion of sinners, who deny the name of the Lord of spirits, and who are thus reserved for the day of punishment and of affliction.
Enoch 45:3 In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory; and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations, while their spirits within them shall be strengthened, when they behold my Elect One, for those who have fled for protection to my holy and glorious name.
Enoch 45:4 In that day I will cause my Elect One to dwell in the midst of them; will change the face of heaven; will bless it and illuminate it forever.
Enoch 45:5 I will also change the face of the earth, will bless it; and cause those whom I have elected to dwell upon it. But those who have committed sin and iniquity shall not inhabit it, for I have marked their proceedings. My righteous ones will I satisfy with peace, placing them before me; but the condemnation of sinners shall draw near, that I may destroy them from the face of the earth. — Book of Enoch, translated by Laurence
If we cannot distinguish between what Jesus actually said and what is attributed to him that is because of the stories and claims that stands between them
(Wikipedia, "Authorship of the Petrine epistles", with note to twelve different scholars).Most scholars today conclude that Peter the Apostle was the author of neither of the two epistles that are attributed to him.
Yes, the anti-Judaism in the gospels is something all Christians must wrestle with. — BitconnectCarlos
It is in that context that I am interested in Marcion who wanted to separate the creator of tradition from the gentle lord of the Savior. It can be noted that Maricon was clearly more 'Hellenized' than the followers of the Torah in Jerusalem. One does not have to purge all traces of 'Greekness' from those followers for the difference to be significant.
A similar condition applies to the earliest gnostic materials. Some are drawn from Greek ideas, some from other sources. There still is a tension between traditional life and visions of apocalypse. The desire to change a world of brutal power such as the Romans deployed remained a goal for Gnostics centuries later. — Paine
You're like the fish who asks: "water? what water?" — BitconnectCarlos
Consider reading your bible again but this time pretend that you're a Jew. — BitconnectCarlos
And one of the scholars approached when he heard them arguing, and because he saw how skillfully Jesus answered them, he asked: of all the Commandments, which is the most important?"
Jesus answered: "The first is, 'Hear, Israel, the Lord your God is one Lord, and you are to love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your mind and with all your energy.' The second is this: 'You are to love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." — The Complete Gospels, edited by Robert Miller
Sure, no "true Jew" has ever thought God became man in the very same sense that no "true Scotsman" has ever told a lie. — Count Timothy von Icarus
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