Would you accept a change to, "a moral right to all income of any kind or amount cannot be reasonably held"? If I labor in my small garden I should like to suppose I have a defendable right to at least some of that produce - sharing of course with the local rabbits.a moral right to income cannot be reasonably held. — Benkei
In light of these factors, a moral right to income cannot be reasonably held. Instead, it is merely a legal right. — Benkei
I'm suggesting laws can change. — Benkei
I find the issue becomes more or less about what an individual can do and what others believe they should do — I like sushi
For example, a hedge fund manager might earn significantly more than a nurse, not because they are more deserving in a moral sense, but because of the structure of the market. — Benkei
Even where we're not considering different types of labour but within the same type of labour, I might not be the best person to do the work and therefore less deserving. Or perhaps not deserving of the amount paid if the quality of my production lacks compared to others, even if the market accepts the price I set. By being paid income I divert income from people who might be more deserving of it than I am. — Benkei
This raises a critical question for the argument that we are entitled to our income: if we acknowledge the importance of need in labor contracts, then it follows that income should not be viewed as an absolute right. If individuals are hired based on their needs, the resultant income is not merely a reward for their labor but also a response to their vulnerability. — Benkei
Is the production process fair and just? Are workers adequately compensated? Are the environmental and social impacts of the work accounted for?
For example, a company that profits from exploitative labor practices or environmental degradation may pay its executives enormous salaries. Can those individuals claim a moral right to their income, when the production process itself is unjust? — Benkei
When we center the discussion on worth, need and just production it becomes clear that individuals do not have an unqualified moral right to all of their income. — Benkei
In light of these factors, a moral right to income cannot be reasonably held. Instead, it is merely a legal right. — Benkei
The genus of right is claim, the species distinguished as being in some sense absolute - hoping here to avoid any tangents on "absolute."merely to waylay the notion of moral entitlement to income merely because you did the work (moral right would require additional justification). — Benkei
How much of the answer to this question depends on the existence of income as money rather than what is produced - material or agricultural? Money separates and abstracts the labor from the product. Of course, a sharecropper or slave gives some or all of what is produced to the landowner and even farmers who are landowners themselves pay taxes. — T Clark
Although there is need to address the fact that CEOs often have an income that is hundreds of times what their workers make, there is also the issue of risk. The willingness to take on risk has value that has to be compensated. Beyond willingness, there also has to be ability, which often depends more on wealth than income. — T Clark
I see this as a fraught issue. It makes sense that more trained, experienced, and competent people should be paid more than people who are less so, but so called "meritocracy" without more or less rigid job definition will generally lead to socially disadvantaged people, e.g. racial minorities and women, being paid less. Beyond that, it leads directly to those from historically privileged groups becoming even more privileged, but I guess that is outside the scope of this discussion. — T Clark
This makes sense from an ethical perspective. As I see it, a good society should ensure a decent life to all it's members willing to participate. I think that would be hard to implement. I guess minimum wages are an attempt to get at the issue. Beyond that, the only practical solution I can think of is a universal basic income, which can separate work from income completely. I guess that's also outside the scope of this discussion. — T Clark
The problem is enforcement. There have to be legal rights to enforce moral ones. — T Clark
Question: can there be a right that is not either directly or indirectly a moral right? It seems to me that all rights are at least in some part moral. — tim wood
And you appear to hold them as somehow an optional add-on. As if morality stored in that tent over there, and maybe we go get some and maybe we don't and just pass on by. — tim wood
My argument, then, is that I have a moral right to possession of what I earn, both for the immediate good, to me and mine, and also for the greater good of all enjoying the same right. This not an absolute claim to all and everything I earn, because there are conflicting obligations we all have as members of communities that also have to be met. — tim wood
What is your point? What do you think? — I like sushi
Different issue I think — Benkei
There was no absolute moral factor invoked. — jgill
here's a contract after all. Etc. Etc. "The standards society adopted" are largely unexamined. — Benkei
By Nozick? I have read Chapters 1 & 2 so I am unsure why you are suggesting these standards are largely unexamined? Also in Chapter 10 (which I have also read fairly thoroughly) how and why society adopt certain standards are looked at here too. For instance, in the three utopian positions: 'Imperialistic,' 'Missionary,' and 'Existential'.
Maybe Chapter 3 does not cover what bothers you thoroughly enough. It woudl be helpful if you can pinpoint where in the Chapter he falls short. I will read that Chapter now. I have been meaning to get back to the book and read every page so this is a good enough excuse to do so now :) Thanks — I like sushi
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