• Carlo Roosen
    84
    Super-human artificial intelligence (SHAI) will come. To be able to deal with it, we will need to understand how it thinks. Yes, it will think, much in the same way as humans do, but with a much larger capacity. That is what I mean with super-human intelligence.

    Before we can understand SHAI thinking, we must understand our own thinking. Especially we need to know its limitations, the point where we have to say "sorry, this is beyond what can be captured in human concepts".

    Thinking cannot be understood by more thinking. We need episodes of non-thinking to step back and observe. When you are without thoughts and are able to catch the first thought that pops into your head, you are on track to learn a few new things. Your first thought might be "Now, what is the purpose of all this non-thinking!?". And then, only when you are alert enough, you might feel a little surprize, where did this voice come from? Indeed, that is what it is, a voice-in-the head. It speaks with the sound of your own voice and in a natural language (I discovered that I think in English quite often, even while Dutch is my first language). The next moment you are back in thinking, meaning that you don't hear the voice anymore, you have become identified with the voice.

    Eastern philosophy can teach a lot about these things, Tao Te Ching and other books. My favorite is Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now, because he gives a more western view. But even Eckhart Tolle can talk in very vague terms, and you may not like that. But what he says really doesn't matter too much. The only thing that is important in his teachings is that you learn to take a break from compulsive thinking.

    Ok, this might all be familiar stuff for you. Yet, this is all not too well integrated with modern philosophy. For instance, I often hear philosophers talk about consciousness being caused by thinking. I can testify that it is not the case, and you can find out for yourself.

    When I woke up after a heart surgery, 5 years ago, my memory was completely blank. I didn't know my own name. No memory no thinking, yet I was perfectly conscious. Since that time this happens to me on a daily basis, although my memory does not drop out completely anymore. Without thoughts, I can eat my lunch, make coffee perfectly. When somebode asks something simple, I can answer. But cooking a meal is challenging, because I need to make decisions.

    I believe this non-thinking state is similar to what animals experience. Some animals have learned a few words, but as far as I know, they do not have these trains of thoughts like we humans have. I don't think they have words that imply causality, for instance.

    Current AI works much the same as animal brains. I will not address AI consciousness here, that is a topic on its own. But the way it operates looks similar to how animals behave, in a kind of linear way from input to output. And even while ChatGPT operates on text, internally this text is just data. But this also is discussion for a later date. I just want to point out here what the relation is between this non-thinking business and our understanding of AI.

    [removed by author]

    Human thinking is reaching the end of its usability. The world is too complex for humans to understand it and coordinate it. I read this article on the forum https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/15497/quo-vadis-united-kingdom . I am not a pessimist by nature, but the signs are clear. Modern society is destroying itself. The place for change is here, on this forum. But we need real answers, not a succession of thoughts.
  • I like sushi
    4.7k
    When I woke up after a heart surgery, 5 years ago, my memory was completely blank. I didn't know my own name. No memory no thinking, yet I was perfectly conscious. Since that time this happens to me on a daily basis, although my memory does not drop out completely anymore. Without thoughts, I can eat my lunch, make coffee perfectly. When somebode asks something simple, I can answer. But cooking a meal is challenging, because I need to make decisions.

    I believe this non-thinking state is similar to what animals experience. Some animals have learned a few words, but as far as I know, they do not have these trains of thoughts like we humans have. I don't think they have words that imply causality, for instance.
    Carlo Roosen

    I know this is practically impossible to explicate but I would appreciate further and more detailed accounts of this please. I would find this EXTREMELY useful to hear an attempt at a first-hand account of this experience (although I understand it is now second-hand to you).

    Also, have you read 'My Stroke of Insight' by Jill Bolte-Taylor? She is a neuroscientist who had a stroke and had to relearn pretty much everything.
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    Yes of course I will do everything I can to describe it. The difficulty of course is that language can refer only to shared experiences, and even then only if we use the same labels. I could call it a "religious experience" for instance, but what does that mean for me and for you?

    The good news is that you can experience it yourself quite easily. The urge to think is a strong one, and one of my big questions is why evolution switched from non-thinking (animals) to only-thinking (humans). But any meditation practice is meant to relax that urge.

    One of the curious things I encounter daily is what I call "impressions". They feel like old memories, with a very distinct atmosphere or, indeed impression. No images, no stories. Every time completely different, in the same way smells can vary in infinite ways. And they feel pleasant, too.

    Only this week I discovered that these impressions naturally come up when you have a new insight. This impression then is attached to the insight and serves as a kind of label for later reference. Apparently in my case this whole mechanism has become detached from its normal purpose, and I get those impression at random times, several times a day.

    My Stroke of InsightI like sushi
    I haven't read it, I will. I had no stroke. No diagnosis has been given in my case, except for a conversion syndrome that distorts my left eye on occasion.
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    further and more detailed accounts of this pleaseI like sushi

    I'll have to think about it. Already it seems I am writing on the edge what is tolerable here...
  • I like sushi
    4.7k
    Yes of course I will do everything I can to describe it. The difficulty of course is that language can refer only to shared experiences, and even then only if we use the same labels. I could call it a "religious experience" for instance, but what does that mean for me and for you?Carlo Roosen

    I have a good enough idea of what you say you have experienced to say that it is likely far more common than you think. Not the EXACT experience, but the same family of experiences (be they brain clots or less apparent physiological/psychological instances).

    I mentioned split brain cases to someone recently, and that kind of instance can be related to the kind of 'non-languaged' expression of experience in some way.

    I haven't read it, I will. I had no stroke. No diagnosis has been given in my case, except for a conversion syndrome that distorts my left eye on occasion.Carlo Roosen

    I am certain you will find common ground in there.
  • 180 Proof
    15.2k
    Modern society is destroying itself.Carlo Roosen
    Yes, that's entropy. :fire:

    Thinking cannot be understood by more thinking.
    And a hand cannot grasp itself just like eyes cannot see themselves and a brain cannot perceive itself. Big whup. But thinking often works, that's all we need to know. "Non-thinking" – autopilot – is involuntary therefore easy, whereas thinking (i.e. learning, creating, reflecting) is voluntary and difficult. The contrast is reflectively instructive. Read Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

    And more broadly:
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_thought

    Yesterday I wrote that I not only have to build this SHAI to save the world, I also have to get philosophy back on track.
    You have come to the right place, Carlo, for such delusions of grandeur to be ridiculed. :smirk:
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    I actually like your reply because it is so easy to refute. If you read Kahneman more carefully you would see his ideas perfectly align with mine. You mix up system 1 with the non-thinking state.

    If you think in a compulsive way, it is basically system 1 at work. When you practice a bit more non-thinking inbetween your thinking, is is where creativity comes in. That is what Kahneman refers to as system 2.

    And I'd rather be ridiculed than ignored, so thank you for the attention.
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    Yes, that's entropy180 Proof

    One example of wrapping a statement in some term without adding understanding. In this case entropy comes from a domain that is very precise - informatica. You apply it loosely to a domain that is highly complex. What do you want to say? Do you want to throw another book at me?
  • 180 Proof
    15.2k
    "And I'd rather be ridiculed than ignored, so thank you for the attention."
    :smirk:
  • I like sushi
    4.7k
    Yesterday I wrote that I not only have to build this SHAI to save the world, I also have to get philosophy back on track. Maybe you think I am arrogant. Believe me, I am not. A better description would be that I feel extremely lonely. It feels like I am in a room with 120 people and they all say that the moon is a cube.Carlo Roosen

    Stating this is not at all likely to help your cause. Some things are best left unsaid. Which you will agree with given what you are hoping to explicate .
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    ok I've removed it.
  • jkop
    837
    Super-human artificial intelligence (SHAI) will come.Carlo Roosen
    Then why is it taking so long? :roll:

    language can refer only to shared experiences, and even then only if we use the same labels.Carlo Roosen

    The sentence 'walking on the moon' refers to an experience that only a few astronauts share. It doesn't suddenly stop referring when the rest of us who lack the experience use the sentence. Furthermore, what else do you expect from language than "only" the same labels? Different labels? :chin:
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    why is it taking so long?jkop

    Is it taking so long? Computers are around less than 90 years. ChatGPT is only a few years old. The rate of improvement is enormous.
  • jkop
    837
    The rate of improvement is enormous.Carlo Roosen

    What's improved? AI is stuck on simulating intelligence, and simulation is not duplication. Neither a machine nor a human becomes intelligent by merely acting as if it is.
  • Carlo Roosen
    84
    That I do agree with, to some degree. Don't underestimate what happens in neural nets, though. The outcome of, say, chatGPT is what we call 'emergent complexity'. In other words, we have no model of how it works. We know the architecture, the rules. We have the training data and how we train it. But what comes out is really something new, in the sense that nobody can predict it.

    The only thing is that the architecture is still too limited such that it only 'sort of' captures the essence what it is trained on. It cannot raise above it. To solve that is the idea that I am working on. But to really understand that idea, you must learn to step out of thinking a bit. I have a bit of a challenge here on the forum to get that across. So if you have some idea what I am talking about, let me know.
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