Thats only a problem if you believe value derives from evolution, a proposition you presented but which I dont hold. — Ourora Aureis
You even mentioned social and cultural factors yourself, but then you immediately overule them with the gene propagation idea. — Ourora Aureis
I already presented why I think people hold these values, and its mostly a case of religious philosophy, not some innate emotional reaction that derives from their biology. — Ourora Aureis
There is a moral difference between a living body with a functioning brain and a living body without a functioning brain.
Brain death is death of the person.
And if the brain could be removed but kept alive then even though it's a single organ it's also a person.
Yet not a single person you’ve met was a brain. So there is no moral difference. — NOS4A2
Continuum fallacy.The one on the left is what the one on the right looked like about 9 months earlier. In those 9 months, what changed for you? — NOS4A2
…or a body. — NOS4A2
The only difference between a zygote and a conscious adult is time. — NOS4A2
That depends entirely on how you account for an individual identity. There is no objective basis for doing so.The differences between you now and you at the beginning of your life are profound, but at each stage you were present and identical to both. — NOS4A2
As a thought experiment, let's assume that brain transplants are medically possible. My brain is placed in @NOS4A2's body and his brain is placed in my body.
Who is NOS4A2 and who is me after the operation?
Why is it still a person if you remove one organ, but not a person if you remove another? — NOS4A2
You would still be you and I would still be me. We can compare pictures from before and after to confirm this. We’d be vegetables, but we’d still be occupying the same location in space and time. — NOS4A2
Because the brain is where personhood is found. Personhood concerns consciousness, and consciousness is what the brain does.
Say currently I'm a white guy and you're a black guy. We have a brain transplant. What colour is my skin after the transplant? I say it's black because my brain has been placed in a black-skinned body, and I am my brain.
That depends entirely on how you account for an individual identity. There is no objective basis for doing so.
You're claiming that this temporal-causal relationship between the stages identify an individual identity. That's a consistent definition, but not objective.Sure there is. Technically we could film or track the entire life of a human being from beginning of his lifecycle to the end, and the identity of that being remains the same. — NOS4A2
How many brains have you met and had a conversation with? — NOS4A2
I’d say it’s white because that’s what you looked like before.
Hundreds? Thousands?
You think that from my perspective I’d fall asleep looking down at my white-skinned body, the operation would be performed, and then I’d wake up looking down at the same white-skinned body, but with a new brain?
Whereas I think that from my perspective I’d fall asleep looking down at my white-skinned body, the operation would be performed, and then I’d wake up looking down at my new black-skinned body.
That’s patently untrue. Brains can’t speak. A great deal more is required to utter a single word. — NOS4A2
You wouldn’t wake up, for one. You said yourself brain-death is the death of the person, and once the brain is removed from the rest, it’s dead. Second, the vast majority of you is still left on the other table. — NOS4A2
The brain uses the lungs and mouth to speak. Much like right now you are using a computer/phone to speak to me.
For the sake of this discussion we are able to keep the brain alive after removing it. It's then placed inside another body and all the necessary connections made.
From my perspective I am put to sleep in one body and then wake up in another body. I don't wake up in the same body but with a new brain.
Someone gave the definition of a person as someone who can sustain themselves: self-sustaining. Given that your person needs to be kept alive by external forces, just like a zygote or fetus, wouldn’t your thought experiment contradict that definition? — NOS4A2
The person uses his lungs and mouth to speak. The brain is only an organ of the person, like the lungs, heart, bones, etc. You are not speaking to a brain any more than you are speaking to a set of lungs. There is more there. — NOS4A2
But suppose a cancerous brain is replaced over-time with a series of machines that work to maintain mental functions until the brain is fully a machine, and no more cancerous brain remains. Are you still your brain? — NOS4A2
I would agree that A and B each receive a new lower body, that person A and person B are upper bodies. But this is because the upper body hasn’t died yet, whereas the lower body, being excised from the rest and all vital functions, has. It is only by staving away putrefaction that it is possible to still use it. Bodily survival is the criterion of physical continuity when it comes to personal identity. — NOS4A2
It isn’t the only essential organ. The heart, kidneys, liver, and lungs are also essential. Hence the phrase “vital organs”. And the vital organs are nothing, or at least hindered, without all the rest to protect and support them. — NOS4A2
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