• Brendan Golledge
    121
    I saw an argument a while ago:

    1. Everything in nature is either determined or random
    2. Free will is neither determined nor random
    C. Free will does not exist.

    This seems like a good argument to me. It seems to me that neither a deterministic algorithm nor a random number generator have free will. If we are entirely composed of such elements, then we cannot have free will, because all of our choices could be decomposed into elements that are not free. Therefore, I concluded a while ago that belief in free will is the same as belief in the supernatural.

    Free will in principle seems to be outside the scope of mathematical/scientific description, because the laws of a system describe how a system must be, but the "free" in "free will" means that we are not forced or predetermined to do anything, and thus free will could not be described by any kind of law.

    My father said once, however, that he thinks that the randomness of quantum mechanics might somehow contribute to free will. I didn't like the idea at first because of the above argument, but after thinking it over, it does sort of make sense. I will discuss some other ideas relating to free will first, however.

    Even if our choices were fully determined, in practice, the processes leading to our choices are extremely complex, so that nobody would ever be able to predict with certainty ahead of time what a person might do.

    Also, I've heard from computer programmers that it is generally impossible to know in advance what the result of a computation will be. The fastest way to find the result of a computation is to just do the computation. Therefore, whatever computations are going on in our heads, it is generally impossible for anyone (including ourselves) to know what we will settle on before we have settled on something. This is another point that explains why we have the experience of free will, even if it might not technically exist.



    Now, for the problem of a system that has both deterministic and random elements. I imagine that the human mind is mostly deterministic, but that the exact manner in which we perceive events may have some randomness in it due to quantum effects that might take place at the level of individual neurons. Also, even if the external circumstances are actually determined, due to our limited knowledge, they appear somewhat random to us.

    As an example of how human behavior on a certain level is deterministic, a person who gets punched in the face will almost certainly experience either fear or anger rather than joy (meaning that the emotional response is not random). So, our emotional responses are fairly easy to predict. And our emotional responses get our thinking processes started. So, for instance, a punch to the face triggers pain, which perhaps triggers fear when the person realizes he's being attacked, which triggers thought processes aimed at avoiding a potential second blow, which are then followed by actions.

    However, the exact manner in which an event is perceived or acted on might be somewhat random. What if a certain state of mind might cause one neuron out of a thousand to behave in an unpredictable manner (it may or may not fire), due to quantum fluctuations which are truly random. Maybe this might have some minute effect on the final result, such as by noticing or not noticing the color jacket of an attacker, or the exact position of the next footstep.

    Another interesting thing about the human mind is that it can think about itself. We can think about what our values are or what the outcomes of previous choices were, and thus value things differently than we did in the past. So, as an analogy, we are like a computer program that has some capacity to rewrite its own code.

    So, I think of our control system as something like a mostly deterministic algorithm, but with the special property of having access to its own source code, and with some small degree of true randomness somewhere in the process. So, the result might be that when we have many experiences, we typically respond to them in a predictable way, but one day we might randomly have a change of heart and become a somewhat different person. Now, if this "randomness" comes from predetermined external circumstances, then it only appears to be random. But if it comes from quantum fluctuations in our own minds, then it truly is random. Now, I don't know if this is consistent with what theists would think of free will, but it would explain how it might be possible that a person might make an unusual choice which maybe not even God himself would be able to predict*.

    *If God is like a computer programmer, then he might choose on purpose to add a true random number generator (like what appears to be the case for quantum particles), or maybe add a special type of thing called "Free will" which is neither determined nor random, and in either case, he would not be able to predict what would happen before it happened. This would not diminish from his omnipotence, because he chose on purpose to make it this way. In a similar way, you wouldn't say that a programmer was necessarily incompetent for adding a random number generator to his code. Now, if God exists outside of time, it might be the case that he still has foreknowledge, not because he's writing the books of our lives for us, but because he can finish reading the book before we have finished writing.

    Of course, this is all just speculation. It was just interesting to me that you can come to some idea that's similar to free will using only reasonable speculation from known physics.
  • Outlander
    2.1k
    How does free will relate to circumstance? If you were born before the advent of technology or perhaps even books, you don't have access to on-demand entertainment and the like, and so, you do not have a choice but to be bored for prolonged periods at a time. If you're born in the middle of a desert continent in times before efficient forms of travel, you might have the will to go swimming, but such will is wasted as it would basically be impossible.

    I have the freedom to hold "will" for or against anything, but if my circumstances or other factors do not permit, such will is essentially in name only, rather matters not and for some intents and purposes may as well not even exist.

    I'm sure most if not all people have the will to eat something they find tasty for their next meal, however based on many factors ranging from finances to mobility, may not ever occur.

    "I think therefore I am" comes to mind for some reason. Say someone is born with a genetic deposition to, I don't know, be incredibly prone to anger or is perhaps unable to "feel" as typically imagined ie. does not feel emotion the way most do (is a sociopath). They still have the capacity to have a will to further their understanding of what and why people feel the way they do and perhaps can, distantly, grasp the concept if they put enough effort into it. Someone with a theoretical hardwired anger problem can, if done fervently, will themselves to be mellow and easygoing. It's just significantly more difficult.

    If you have a neuro-typical brain, your "choices", thoughts, or "imagination" is your will. Seems free enough in the closed confines of one's own head, of course that doesn't mean if I will to do 1,000 pushups I'll be able to actualize said will into the real world.

    I recently obtained some fresh catfish filets from my local supermarket the other day. I chose to add said foodstuff to my "cart" because of the following reasons to the best of my knowledge: A.) A TPF moderator suggested to try catfish. B.) I was fond of catfish growing up and haven't had any for some time. C.) I recently engaged in tasting different kinds of fish and posting said dishes in the Shoutbox and happen to enjoy doing so. D.) There are only about 5-6 different kinds of fish available at this supermarket with said fish happening to be in stock at the time of my order. So many things are responsible and relevant to each of those reasons, each can be analyzed and as a result produce dozens and dozens of further side reasons/cause and effect chains to the point they can no longer be kept track of or reasonably assumed to be actual contributing factors. Regardless, I still could have easily removed the catfish and opted for salmon instead. The fact my local supermarket doesn't have prehistoric Acondylacanthus fish in stock and I happened to have wanted to try some, or any other sort of cause-effect dynamic outside of my control, shouldn't be a deciding factor in whether free will exists or not. Does it?

    Many things outside our control can limit our final actions and their ultimate outcomes, but will is desire and while the reason one may desire one thing and not the other is likely based on a torrent of things outside our control, even before we were born, one still has the agency to determine the difference between what was expected, what actually occurred, and whether or not the latter serves or opposes the original, free desire or thought, and to what degree.
  • NOS4A2
    9.3k


    Note the passive voice: everything in nature is determined. Determined by what? If human behavior is determined then it needs to be determined by something other than ourselves, or else it is determined by us, which entails free will.

    To get around this determinists often posit an abstraction of ourselves to be the determiner of our actions. But it's just a roundabout way to say we determine our actions. For example, if our behavior is determined by our "emotional responses", then it is determined by ourselves, because we are our emotional responses. If it is determined by neurons, then it is determined by ourselves, because we are our neurons. If it is determined by a "certain state of mind", then it is determined by ourselves, because we are our states of mind.

    We have to consider the ultimate source of our actions, and rarely is this source something other than ourselves. If the source of our acts and behaviors are an abstraction of ourselves, then it is invariably determined by us, unless some other force in the world can be shown to produce such an act.
  • Gregory
    4.7k


    Good OP. Sometimes a beheaded cranium lasts alive for a few seconds. The "seat" of consciousness is the brain, complex matter. A structure like that can be said to have necessary AND random aspects, and I agree the random movements within the brain can be the expression of truly free will. But old Kant was in a bind when said nature was separate from consciousnss, the latter of which sees only appearances. Consciousness is shrouded in ever escaping darkness but to live is be united, to be organism. Sight is the gift that reaches out to expreience beyond it things and other beings. Free will is the core experience of consciousness. Animals may only have partial structures of it
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    1. Everything in nature is either determined or random
    2. Free will is neither determined nor random
    C. Free will does not exist.
    Brendan Golledge

    You have claimed that Item 1 is true without justification. Perhaps you think it is self evident, but I disagree.

    Item C is wrong. The correct conclusion is that free will is not in nature. It isn’t clear to me that’s the same thing as saying it doesn’t exist.
  • Patterner
    998

    I'll add that I disagree with #2. If the 'free' means free from determinism, and will is random, then it is free from determinism.
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    I'll add that I disagree with #2. If the 'free' means free from determinism, and will is random, then it is free from determinism.Patterner

    I’m OK with your way of looking at it. To tell the truth, I don’t even really know what it means.
  • Patterner
    998

    I've never heard that there is a general consensus regarding from what free will is supposed to be free. But if it's physicalist determinism, then will is free if it is random. I think that's what means by "free".
  • T Clark
    13.9k
    I've never heard that there is a general consensus regarding from what free will is supposed to be free. But if it's physicalist determinism, then will is free if it is random. I think that's what ↪Brendan Golledge means by "free".Patterner

    Except I don’t think deterministic and random are the only two choices. I don’t think there’s any empirical way to determine whether or not the universe is deterministic. I think it is clear that it’s not random.
  • Patterner
    998
    Except I don’t think deterministic and random are the only two choices. I don’t think there’s any empirical way to determine whether or not the universe is deterministic. I think it is clear that it’s not random.T Clark
    I agree. And looking back, I see that I wore while too tired, and on too many sites. I explained myself badly. Perhaps I'll be able to do better tomorrow. Lol

    But I agree that physical determinism and random are not the only two choices, and I think consciousness and free will are proof of another.
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